What do we do about the proliferation of sharks??

[shagnrelease]

Here are some stats from ponta do Ouro this passed December, 5 days fishing - 46 strikes, of those hits about 7 fish boated and about 7 fish lost, the balance were all taxed!! about R1500 worth of gear lost due to cutting off and bite offs. The main culprits were Zambezi's and black tips, this was between 25-mt-rs of water. if I had it my way I would have drum lining and bang-sticking the buggers!!  But that's just out of frustration, all the sharks were either long line releases or cut of at the boat.


we lost a lot of gear, but maybe it means a healthy reef system? who knows? but i would have gladly shipped a bunch of fins eastward at the time!!





but there is some great info here  :shre:

[REEFMAN]

Great contribution Libs! Amazing the complexities that lurk behind a seemingly 'not so complex' problem...  Keep up the good work... it's people like you who will eventually make the difference...

Oh, and to Nantes... from initially dissing us binnelanders and pointing fingers, cred to you for actually putting your money where your mouth is. We're actually all in the same boat here, all concerned about the problem and all keen to do our bit to find a workable and sustainable solution... big ups to you and Tom for taking this further. We're behing your concerns all the way...
 

[nantes]

hi reefman
sorry if i affended you by pointing fingers to te binnelanders
its just all the pm.s i got was from the binnelanders that told me we dont have a shark problem and i dont know what i was talking about
i even got threads from some. thats why i made that comment
i appologise for that and every one else i affended
thanks to tom for giving us a place to have that al importing meeting and a special thanks to libs for taking the time to come down from pmb to listen to us
sure we wil get some results
 
nantes

[Capt. Hook]

 
I am in, let me know how to start

[Capt. Hook]

hi reefman
sorry if i affended you by pointing fingers to te binnelanders
its just all the pm.s i got was from the binnelanders that told me we dont have a shark problem and i dont know what i was talking about
i even got threads from some. thats why i made that comment
i appologise for that and every one else i affended
thanks to tom for giving us a place to have that al importing meeting and a special thanks to libs for taking the time to come down from pmb to listen to us
sure we wil get some results
 
nantes

  I gave you a credit for your applogy, but unfortunately it does not bring it back into positive. Any way for certain things it is better to be negative.

[tackle whore]

idea is to list all fish caught and sizes per trip , those returned /tagged/kept .GPS location or general area /zone .time in hours spent on water . daytime or night .fish species taxed, est size of that fish eaten,were in water colum it was taken by shark ie - surface/bottom/midwater.tackle used as well as line class . for kob/geelbeck also keep the otolith for age and size data on all fish kept .
a data base of all fish caught in a specific area will tell you the health of a reef/zone etc .
time on water will also indicate health of a zone -ie you catch 100 fish in 2 hours or you catch 1 in 2 hours fishing.
day time or night  could indicate a pattern for shark taxing.
species of fish taxed , size,were are all indicators that help determine if the sharks are attracted to the bigger fish ,wether they are shadowing the schools of fish as natural predators and nailing a hooked fish straight away - on bottom or are attracted from a distance - top water / midwater .
tackle used/line class  - fewer fish getting eaten on heavy gear than on dropshot gear , would then be a good indicator to upgrading tackle/line class .
otolith are growth indicators [ small bones in head region/ like rings on a tree very good to get an idea of the age  of the fish - mature breeding stock etc , that info with tagging returns and shark tax can givee a good picture of the population health of an area or species .
NOW the crunch . this can all backfire for you guys heres why - lets take geelbeck you go out and catch fish , return all the info , some scientist sits and feeds all that info into his computer [ never goes to sea because he gets seasick ] and gets this back ----------
boats are catching lots of big mature [otolith research] breeding stock geelbek , infact they are really hammering the stock  in certain areas - due to the fish being in certain areas more so than others - must be breeding stock , sharks are eating 1/2 that fish hooked by the fleet of recreational to add to the problem , the commercials are now complaining that the recreationals/charter boats are catching too much thats why there catch returns are down - who gets screwed the recreationals !!!! its happened before , our geelbek catches drop for 1 year[ because its a cycle] the recs get screwed down to 1 fish pp , the next year the commercials land catches  over a ton a night per boat 15-20 boats fishing a night  , so much that the buyers refuse to buy the fish as the factories dont want it .
its so bad now that most of the commercials dont tell the truth on their catch returns because they know some scientist will pick it up and correct the wrong .
   

[TUNAMAN]

I'm not sure how many of you fished Durban in the 80's? I have seen reference to 10 years ago etc. but what about 30 odd years ago?

I fished on pick with my Oldman in those days for Rockcod. We had the odd shark take the bait but did not get taxed that often at all. During these times an anglers response to catching a shark was to wound it and put it back in the water hence feeding its mates. It was cruel times. Keep in mind that years prior to it plenty of large sharks were hunted due to their prolific attendance caused by the whaling activity at the time.

Some interesting information has surfaced in this thread. An example is Shelly (Protea) stats of being most rampant when taxing is concerned. Now Protea is also where you will find large sharks and not just juveniles that indicates a very healthy eco system. The mallards comp held at Protea (reference was made to line class) has an open line class. This enables you to get fish past the sharks. What I need to mention however is you need to have some experience in a) Knowing the class of the fish when it hits. This determines your immediate action here after. b) Know how to handle a boat quickly and efficiently with a crew to match.  Yes some do get taxed but what i found when yellow fin was concerned, it was mostly the shoal size at the time. The larger specimens give you a proper 200 - 300m run, this coupled with the boat travelling with it does give you some extra time on the fish. However not on light tackle not anything lighter than 30 pound. There are days on Protea where you cannot find a shark but then again no other fish either.

Past experience in Durban hunting gamefish was as follow. When getting knocks on the surface out of the normal hotspots the fish were landed with no sharks been witnessed. With Couta as soon as you get a knock or two it only takes 15 minutes and the sharks start taking your baits. This increases to the extend where the hooked shark gets taxed by other sharks. The following day the bites are scarce but you fail to even hook a shark even if you tried ... weird!!

Some facts that remain.

1.  The release of sharks over the last few years have had a positive effect on their numbers.
2.  If there is shark there is other fish. They can also be an indicator.
3.  Sharks have always been clever we are only taking notice now. So is the other fish as well.
4.  Nature will sort out imbalances and have always done so.
5.  There are still large sharks. Durban however I see as a nursery for sharks due to the amount of bait available to them. Hence the huge amount of smaller sharks around.
6.  Tried and tested - the 20-25m line is where you can catch a shark at will. Funny that in KZN North it is the gamefish line.
7.  Abundance of shark on the reef systems are caused by the decimation of the inshore nurseries we used to have when our river mouths were open.

Just some insight into my theory that other fish learn just as well as sharks learn. Over the past year or so, after a dismal previous season, I decided something has to change. I acquired some special mapping software from my pal and started studying areas I intend to fish. Careful attention was given to structure and types of fishing normally done on these areas. My range was 60km from launch site and no rock was unturned during the planning. I concentrated on fishing areas unfished, if I fished an area that is common I would change techniques entirely to the norm and I would target depths normally not considered.

Well the results proved that fish learn that a jig hurts them and it leaves a lasting impression. They also are able to change habitat. How else have they survived this long. They are also able to distinguish a high pressure area from a low pressure area.

If the above works then sharks are no less intelligent. They are animals of instinct.

If only we have eyes in the ocean. Mankind interferes to much. They were fine without us and we need to live with it the way it is.

I feel sorry for the commercials as it really impacts on their livelihood. We have to agree that someone has to bring the fish to the stores for mankind and it is no easy task.

[Lynski]

Well done again Libs --Hope all us Fishermen/People dont waste your time and let you down ??
You are going to get a flood of Demands/Ideas on what to do.
 The two Lynski boats will be glad to help.
Let me know where your site is-what info you want (with perhaps a little suggestion box).
If you like I will put a note out to the Members of the Durban Charter Boat Assocation asking them if they would like to assist in your info gathering??
I would be bold enough to suggest that you be honest and transparent with your info gathering and "giving" as one of the guys has rightly said in the past info has been "collected" then come back to bite us on the bum.
Perhaps the organisers of this site could also assist you (hint !)
Catch you Later
Tom Over and Out ???
 
 

[Libs]

Hey Tom

I hope I am completely flooded by replies. As many as possible. And if you can get feedback from guys, please.

In terms of the database and transparency/honesty. The type of info inputted will be determined by the guys who want to put it in - my role here is as a channel, a conduit. I have no agenda here, beyond genuinely wanting to be involved in some way to help the fishing sector.  The info that goes in, the types of reports, how, if and when they are taken to gov will be determined by the guys who put the info in.

Research for me has to be objective - I am only here to reflect your opinions.

And I will never burn anyone in my research ever, ever. When I do research, I am as open to opinion as possible. Try and think of me as an irrrigation channel that just conduits the opinions of the guys who participate. For me, it would be bad research to impose my own opinions. Bad, bad, bad.

The past 2 years, chatting to a whole bunch of guys who are rec's, comm's, charters is that there are some big problems which no-one in the former MCM/now DAFF is paying attention to. Taxing in this province (and others) is just one issue (Thanks to the guys nantes set up for a chat -  and my sources down up an down the rest of the coast).
 There are a whole bunch of issues that have come up. All I want to do is get as accurate report back as possible from the guys out there.  Everyone involved will see every step of the database phase, how info is entered, how it is analyzed. Again, at the end of the day, I am a piece of machinery working for you guys. As long as the info accurately reflects your opinions, as long as your are happy with the analyses, I am happy. My job is not dependent on gov, or any research institute............I am just there to tell people how you feel.

And the sugggestion box....definitely. This is all about what you guys want....not want I want to hear.

[nantes]

went out fishing for some geelbek yesterday
found shoals of bait next to the southpier. wasnt to long and i was of to the deeper reefs. tried bout 6 or 7 spots with no luck
 
on the way home i stopped at one of my shallow spots.ant yes the fish was there. hooked 16 fish
 
got home wih no fish . they all got eaten. no not by us . by sharks
 
but i didnt mind. as you all know they are endangers and there is only a few of them left and they are on the endangeres list
 
cant wait for the next good day to go and feed them again
 
nantes

[REEFMAN]

went out fishing for some geelbek yesterday
found shoals of bait next to the southpier. wasnt to long and i was of to the deeper reefs. tried bout 6 or 7 spots with no luck
 
on the way home i stopped at one of my shallow spots.ant yes the fish was there. hooked 16 fish
 
got home wih no fish . they all got eaten. no not by us . by sharks
 
but i didnt mind. as you all know they are endangers and there is only a few of them left and they are on the endangeres list cant wait for the next good day to go and feed them again
 
nantes

At least you haven't lost your sense of humour!! 

Perhaps the organisers of this site could also assist you (hint !)

Tom
 
 

Tom, what do you have in mind?  Admin is fully behind research/conservation efforts... will do whatever we can?!

[TUNAMAN]

Nantes at least your cred will be flush soon.... + Cred for the humour!

[Keith]

Hi all, I'm Lib's husband and I've begun work on the "shark activity database". I'm actually quite excited about doing this, it will be good to make a database that's actually useful to normal people for once!
 
As part of the attempt to make the process as user-friendly as possible, I'm intending to use a fair number of drop down lists so that users don't have to type stuff in all the time. In order to do this, I'm going to need a bit of info from you guys. Although I'm an enthusiastic (but mostly unsuccessful) shore based fisherman, my knowledge of boat-based fishing is pretty much non-existant. For example, I don't actually have much idea what fish species you guys are targetting, or catching. One thing I'm going to need is a list of the fish species that you encounter, and what category best describes them (bottom dweller etc. etc.)
 
Other "drop down list info" I'm going to need includes tackle types (dropshot, heavy etc. etc.) and line classes. Also, I need some idea about how you guys classify a fishing spot - is it in terms of water depth, reef presence, distance from shore... or what exactly?
 
I'm sure I will have plenty more questions and requests for info as I work my way through this... but I don't know enough about your type of fishing to ask more at this stage. The best advice I can give you is to assume I know nothing (safe assumption!), and provide more detail than you would when speaking to each other 
 
 

[Homie]

Cred to you Libs !

[Kumz]

   Keith ...
 

[TUNAMAN]

Welcome Keith!

[TUNAMAN]

For example, I don't actually have much idea what fish species you guys are targetting, or catching. One thing I'm going to need is a list of the fish species that you encounter, and what category best describes them (bottom dweller etc. etc.)
 
Other "drop down list info" I'm going to need includes tackle types (dropshot, heavy etc. etc.) and line classes. Also, I need some idea about how you guys classify a fishing spot - is it in terms of water depth, reef presence, distance from shore... or what exactly?

Keith I will attempt to answer some questions as best I can. This will be from an offshore point of view.

Firstly I would think water depth will be important and should be reflected in its own column with 5 m Intervals up to about 200 or 250 meters. Reason for this is depth might indicate a higher occurrence in itself and some do drop baits down to 250m. Anything deeper would be broadbill fishing. So the last box should be 250m+.

Then the area should be indicated as REEF, WRECK, BETWEEN STRUCTURE, LEDGE OR DROP, HOLE and OPEN WATER.

Line classes is best to keep simple and one should choose the closest option in pounds 20, 30, 50, 80, 100, 130 or OPEN.

Fish categories can be BOTTOM, GAME, BILL, FLATFISH, SHARK (in case one actually targets them).

Species there is plenty but a separate drop down will be required for specific shark species as this will be informative.

I will post a spreadsheet here with some of the species.

[Keith]

Thank you Tunaman, thats exactly the kind of info I need!
 
A question that's just occured to me: if you lose a hooked fish to a shark, do you always know what species you had hooked?

[TUNAMAN]

Here is the spreadsheet. It contains the majority of species as mentioned.

Good question: It will vary from angler to angler but majority of the time say 70% you can tell and most of the time it will be as an example between a bek or cob. The fish one targets and their abilities give you and insight. Another example for a reasonably fast running surface fighter (considering your methods) will be a Couta or Wahoo.

Another collumn might be required for Technique....TROLLING LURE, LIVE BAIT, BAITING, JIG, DEEP DROP, SURFACE POP etc.

[Keith]

Here is the spreadsheet. It contains the majority of species as mentioned.

Good question: It will vary from angler to angler but majority of the time say 70% you can tell and most of the time it will be as an example between a bek or cob. The fish one targets and their abilities give you and insight. Another example for a reasonably fast running surface fighter (considering your methods) will be a Couta or Wahoo.

Another collumn might be required for Technique....TROLLING LURE, LIVE BAIT, BAITING, JIG, DEEP DROP, SURFACE POP etc.

Good stuff, thank you! That's a comprehensive list of species in the spreadsheet, very useful