SEINE NETTERS AND CATCHERS

[travelmember]

So then, back on track, who has, or will respond/ed to the call for comments published yesterday.
Is it a singular response, or a group.
Will it have any scientific input or will it be based on hearsay.


RobinF, are you co-ordinating responses? Will you be doing it for all the netting nationally?
This seems like an ideal opportunity to address the concerns. Failure to do so may well see more allocations to community based projects.

[jb2]

This forum is NOT interested in a childish slanging match about who lied and who didn't. Mr Bruk, if you have issues with RobinF, take them up with him privately.
You have many interesting observations on this subject, which make interesting reading, however we will not tolerate any more bickering at individuals.
We are also NOT interested what has transpired on any other Angling forum. Your kind co-operation will be appreciated.

Thread cleaned.

Apologies
I will only comment on issues that are posted on the forum. 
Please let me know if I step on toes again.

[jb2]

Yeah, it's 'organised chaos'. Also, this notion that the trekkers release Bronze sharks because they are 'conservation minded', is non-sense. If they fin a shark on the beach, what do they do with the rest of the shark? Just know that the trekkers will ALWAYS do what is in their own interests.

I also do not buy the whole 'Naartjie won't trek if their are too many small fish'. My belief is that they don't want to have to sort all the smaller fish out from the bigger fish. When you get caught with over 1000 undersized fish in your freezer, no matter how doff the next guy is, he will never believe that you are conservation minded.

Hi Robin
In this post you make the suggestion that the release of sharks is not done out of a conservation objective.
In this suggestion you are wrong.
I helped with organising the release of sharks with SASC and the trekkers.
You also speak of sharks being finned on the beach,. Finning is a practice carried out at sea usually by distant water fleets.
Please give some clarity by what you mean by sharks being finned on a beach.
Is it even possible to practice finning on land?
 

[jb2]

Thank you Rooiwil, you cannot believe the K*K that I have gotten for my efforts and even for my avatar! Bunch of kids on another forum thought they'd try to get under my skin by shooting shots at Sea Shepherd  . I must say that I seldom get flack on this forum, that is what puts UA well above other forums. It's interesting that those that those that are so bold on other forums (And that are members here) won't pull the same non-sense here. Thank you Ultimate Angling for a superb forum. UA is a friendly and a 'warm' place to chat on. There is a mutual respect on this forum which one does not see on a lot of other forums.

Anyway, the tide has shifted and this form of fishing is no longer acceptable. This form of fishing started out as 'subsistence' many years ago, now it is a lucrative money making racket. It needs to be stopped completely.

I guarantee you all, that in 15yrs time, we will all look at this form of fishing and think holy hell, did they really still do that in 2013? The saddest thing is that these operations may shut down from lack of fish before we get them stopped. Maybe I'm wrong, possibly the resources will survive, I really hope so.   

well said kaptain hook!!!!    and robinf thanks for all the work you have done with this!!!! great avatair..she sheppard is a wonderfull organization to belong to!!!   to you too!!!

hi all
what i would like to know is, why should the public be responsible to notify authorities of illegal catches?
should they not be present to regulate and oversee what these idiots haul out? every sector controlled by government is a joke take everything from u but gives nothing back.

Because its our duty as responsible citizens, and in our own best interests. Evil prevails because good men do nothing.

Hi Robin
Fisheries has published as draft policy which seems to suggest the exact opposite of what you are suggesting in this post.
Try to get your hands on a copy and have a look at the provisions for rights holders.
Your comments in this post about things taking a more stringent turn in the management of inshore resources , doesn't make any sense to me.
How does one reconcile your suggestion about more stringent management with the Ministers decision to ignore scientific advice in the kreef sector.
She rejected the scientists advice to reduce the TAC and instead chose to keep the TAC constant.
I suppose that is a bit like the revival of the trek at Glencairn that was revived against scientific advice.
How do you suggest we make sense of this contradiction?

[jb2]

So then, back on track, who has, or will respond/ed to the call for comments published yesterday.
Is it a singular response, or a group.
Will it have any scientific input or will it be based on hearsay.


RobinF, are you co-ordinating responses? Will you be doing it for all the netting nationally?
This seems like an ideal opportunity to address the concerns. Failure to do so may well see more allocations to community based projects.

Hi Travelmember
Your question to Robin is a good one but keep in mind that the contents of the policy are at odds with the contents of posts on this thread.
The policy is quite far reaching and looks to the greater implementation of the small scale fisheries policy.
You will recall that the small scale policy looks at giving greater control of inshore resources to coastal communities.
This goes as far as having areas declared priority small scale fishing areas that are reserved for coastal communities.
This would obviously have a huge impact on us recreationals.
There are some technical problems with the draft policy and it will have to include changes to the Marine Living Resources Act but things look bleak.

[jb2]

I agree 2bar. It is essentially managing a bad situation because the eradication is not an overnight process. That has been one of my biggest drives, make the authorities accountable. If the netters are 'policed' the bad apples will literally hand over the evidence and they can have their licenses revoked (I hope). The netters that choose to straighten up under threat of licenses being revoked will have to clean up.

The other big issue is why these guys don't or won't open the net up at the back and release the undersized or protected species? Maybe someone can enlighten on this? There is supposed to be a draw string attached which actually allows the net to be opened at the back for this exact reason. if it is because they are too lazy or if it is too much effort, then we are back to the fact that they do not deserve to be doing what they do. Anyone?

Hi Robin
Thanks, I can clear it up but it is important to clear up your understanding of the construction of the net. There is no "drawstring" on the net.
It is not like the string on your shorts that keeps it together. When you go to a trek have a look at the back left part of the kuil and you will see that a corner has been tied off.
This corner is a very small aperture and is not necessarily the best way to empty a net. On the contrary it can be very bad if the net has a lot of seaweed in it. Then it makes more sense to open the kuil from the landward side.
If you have any other technical questions, fire away?

[RobinF]

So then, back on track, who has, or will respond/ed to the call for comments published yesterday.
Is it a singular response, or a group.
Will it have any scientific input or will it be based on hearsay.


RobinF, are you co-ordinating responses? Will you be doing it for all the netting nationally?
This seems like an ideal opportunity to address the concerns. Failure to do so may well see more allocations to community based projects.

Hi Travelmember, your question is a good one - the issues facing us is the small time frame to co-ordinate something substantial. As far as I know, we have until the end of the month. That is not enough time to meet scientists, other concerned members etc. get all the info together and put together a realistic 'group' opposition. I will be voicing my concerns, yes, but not as a group. I am hoping that other people, like myself will take the time and send in letters of concern. If we put a group together, it must be meaningful group or we will never be taken seriously. My biggest concern is that certain decisions have already been made. DAFF have said in Durban that they will not disclose what the decision to grant or not to grant the licenses will be based on. That makes it difficult to oppose.

In the issue of the Durban Vetch's Pier Netting operation, it looks like the License renewal has already been granted, prior to objections. I cannot confirm this 100%, it was something that Ken Morty (EKZNW) said in last week's meeting. I have emailed him and asked him to clarify. (I doubt that he will reply)

The opposition to this form of fishing is not going to win overnight. If I look at the emotional responses and personal stabs and rocks that are thrown at me, I can only say that it is a good measure to go on that progress is being made. Conservation is and always will be a thankless and hated cause where money is concerned. I am not going away and I find great motivation in the anger and almost hatred that gets hurled my way. This is a long fight, if they issue more licenses, I will view it as a setback, but it will only convince me to dedicate more time to this cause.

(Just so everyone is in the picture - JB2 is a maritime lawyer that works with the seine netters in the Cape.)

[jb2]

So then, back on track, who has, or will respond/ed to the call for comments published yesterday.
Is it a singular response, or a group.
Will it have any scientific input or will it be based on hearsay.


RobinF, are you co-ordinating responses? Will you be doing it for all the netting nationally?
This seems like an ideal opportunity to address the concerns. Failure to do so may well see more allocations to community based projects.

Hi Travelmember, your question is a good one - the issues facing us is the small time frame to co-ordinate something substantial. As far as I know, we have until the end of the month. That is not enough time to meet scientists, other concerned members etc. get all the info together and put together a realistic 'group' opposition. I will be voicing my concerns, yes, but not as a group. I am hoping that other people, like myself will take the time and send in letters of concern. If we put a group together, it must be meaningful group or we will never be taken seriously. My biggest concern is that certain decisions have already been made. DAFF have said in Durban that they will not disclose what the decision to grant or not to grant the licenses will be based on. That makes it difficult to oppose.

In the issue of the Durban Vetch's Pier Netting operation, it looks like the License renewal has already been granted, prior to objections. I cannot confirm this 100%, it was something that Ken Morty (EKZNW) said in last week's meeting. I have emailed him and asked him to clarify. (I doubt that he will reply)

The opposition to this form of fishing is not going to win overnight. If I look at the emotional responses and personal stabs and rocks that are thrown at me, I can only say that it is a good measure to go on that progress is being made. Conservation is and always will be a thankless and hated cause where money is concerned. I am not going away and I find great motivation in the anger and almost hatred that gets hurled my way. This is a long fight, if they issue more licenses, I will view it as a setback, but it will only convince me to dedicate more time to this cause.

(Just so everyone is in the picture - JB2 is a maritime lawyer that works with the seine netters in the Cape.)

Hi Robin
 
I am also a passionate recreational fisherman and I represent recreational interests on a volunteer basis. I have done volunteer work for the WWF and other conservation organisations.
 
I have pointed out that I have been involved in  just about every sector in the fishing industry.
Since treknetting is discussed most frequently, I write about treknetting. If white mussel jiving or octopus fishing were frequent topics then I would write more about these sectors.
So now that we have some background let's get back to the issues.
If you are unwilling or unable to respond to my posts then please say so.

[eric cotton]

Wonder why jb2 was so knowledgeable about he netter.....

[CLS]

When there is nothing left they will all have  no income

[RobinF]

CLS, look at yesterday's catch at Vetch's. How much money did they make from that? That is the concern with the 117garrick issue. That they will resort to finding 'other' ways of earning. (Selling protected species, selling undersized fish, etc. and that goes for all the seine netters, not just one.)

[jb2]

Wonder why jb2 was so knowledgeable about he netter.....

Hi Eric
There is a bit more to it as well. I used to sneak off and go commercial handline fishing in the 80's when I was about 15.
I haven't really spoken to the netters about the draft policy. The policy is the opposite of what Robin has been suggesting.
Also keep in mind that removing one netter does not mean that a net fishery is shut down. Another one will simply take its place

[jb2]

When there is nothing left they will all have  no income

Hi CLS
I don't know enough about beach seines in KZN but here in the Cape, things have not been that bleak.
The netters that work in the south of False Bay target yellowtail. Yellowtail in making a very strong recovery and the Cape has had a good recreational season.
We as recreationals had been saying that the yellowtail nets were destroying the stock but this has been proved to be false.
The yellowtail catch was so good in Struisbaai that the price went down to around R8, 00 per kg off the boat.
 

[Marthin]

Just after Breco imported 50 tons of yellowtail from japan i think, the price in struis dropped to R7/kg off the boat.

[travelmember]

And herein lies some of the problem.
Personally I have no problem with the Fish Hoek trek for yellowtail. Migratory species, limited bycatch, seasonal etc. And despite recreationals throwing toys after every picture of dead tail, the stock is in good shape. In fact, I would say that given the huge increase in the number of recreational boats catching tail, we have the potential to do more damage than the trek.


In the same way, I don't think the Baden Powell trek is a good thing. Higher bycatch, indiscriminate species haul, less migratory species etc. Now, to try and prove this and the fact that the hook and cook recreational does less damage is going to be very difficult. One net cast 50 times a year versus an estimated angler effort of 7000 per annum. Perhaps an economic argument would make more sense.


In terms of the Durban net, it is quite clear that the local development has altered the shore flow, thereby changing migratory patterns. There is simply no way that this net is sustainable and it should be removed. However, using this argument will simply see it relocated.


My point is that each location has its own unique argument. To try a blanket ban approach is doomed to failure as the policy is already leaning to giving MORE rights to coastal communities.


BTW, I had an interesting chat the other day with a forum that wants an MPA to be implemented in the former Transkei - and for the resource to be exclusively used by the local community. No other fishing allowed. I am not sure what the rock and surf clubs are doing about this, but it is also something that requires urgent attention.

[2bar.boost]

Just after Breco imported 50 tons of yellowtail from japan i think, the price in struis dropped to R7/kg off the boat.

Maybe thats even our own yt Breco imported back from Japan 

[RobinF]

Just after Breco imported 50 tons of yellowtail from japan i think, the price in struis dropped to R7/kg off the boat.

Why did they import if our YT stocks are so good? (What on earth are they selling YT for in Japan, I would have thought it would have been better to support a local fisheries and keep the $ in SA?)

[travelmember]

Aquaculture. It has little to do with stock, more to do with price.

[RobinF]

  How much must they have paid for the YT (Taking shipping and duties into account) to make it profitable....

[Marthin]

The facts are simple to look at.  And it's not an insult or personal attack or anything else.

Fact 1. 
Treknetting has been allocated a certain portion of the TAC.  It has been enshrined in the GENERAL POLICY ON THE ALLOCATION AND MANAGEMENT OF FISHING RIGHTS as a totally accepted method of traditional fishing.  Anything else not on paper that says the contrary is a lie! Please see below

EVISED GENERAL POLICY ON THE ALLOCATION AND MANAGEMENT OF FISHING RIGHTS which is also available on the Department's website on www.daff.gov.za

Fact 2
Research into the fishing method in the western cape has shown that in the broader scheme of things it has a very small impact on fish species targeted and that it is totally sustainable.  How accurate this is is debateable, however if you take the recent undersize kob of a bakkie load that was hauled. That is 1 Ton.  And it doesnt happen every day.  Inshore trawlers the kob average 5 - 9 kobs per kg.  Use length to weight convertor and work that one out.  Their "bycatch" of kob a year declared is around 294 tonnes (not taking into consideration dumping).  With that in mind a net pulled at Sonwabi has a minimal impact on silwer kob if you do simple maths.  The species targeted are not resident species but fish that move in and out of falsebay.  It's the same silwer kob that are getting nailed on kalkbay harbour, and getting taken on the commercial boats in the bay, with good catches in a night being 200 - 400kg a man!
These figures are facts

Fact 3
Netting is seen by DAFF and Cosatu Fishing Desk as completely sustainable, and even as one of the only "under utelised" fishing forms available.  Now please refer to point 4 on the daff document mentioned above.  It is clear that DAFF policy is to utelize every form of fishing to the absolute maximum, with the maximum amount of job creation.(bear this part in mind with fact 4).  What shows the future is that DAFF has already allowed an additional trek at Glencairn, and Cosatu Fishing Desk has made it crystal clear that there will be even more treks allowed by next year.  This is also a fact, so brace yourself shiela!

Fact 4
Weather we know it or not, Recreational Angling and what we take out of the ocean is also part of the TAC that is put forward every year.  Now when the small scale crayfish commercials didnt have enough TAC to allow more entrants, what did they do?  DAFF made the Recreational Angling crayfish season shorter and smaller, thereby reducing the Recreational Impact on the TAC for crayfish, and opening a hole for small scale commercial outfits. This is a fact, please bear it in mind when reading below.  It isn't fact but with this bit of history i wouldnt put it past DAFF, the ANC and Cosatu Fishing Desk to make it happen.

So Recreational Angling are now upset because Treknetting is killing fish that, for the most part Recreationals want to catch and eat(Perception).  Cosatu fishing desk views it from the other side that Recreationals are catching and keeping the fish that another of their previously disadvantaged small scale fishers could be netting and providing work for about 20 - 25 people.

Now remember that

1. the policy mentioned above give preference to a fishing method that is labour intensive.  If you took all the tackle shops in cape town with all the tackle reps for the different companies it wouldnt be 20 - 25 people. (the policy doesnt give preference to how much money one makes compared to the other, how many people does it employ).

2.  Look at the kreef TAC and the actions taken.

3.  With that in mind it is clear that if Cosatu Fishing Desk, and then DAFF wants to give more treknetters access, or even ensure that the current ones are sustainable they will do exactly what they did with kreef and take away from recreationals.  An example would be, our silver kob limit coming down from 5 to 1 per person.  Steenbras becomes a no catch species, then DAFF doesnt have to worry about the ones getting killed in the treknets, and easy as that it is sustainable.

With this in mind, it will not shock me in the least if we have more treknets operating within the next 12 - 18 months, and if the restriction on silwer kob doesnt become stricter.

Fact 5
And this one is the most important to note.  The fishing rights that have been allocated to the current trekkers in cape town will not disappear.  If Robin is successful and others are successful and for examply Nartjie loses his posession of the right, it means the right will then be allocated to someone else.  So you will have the same crew that steal, with a different owner.  It is very important to note this.  The fishing right and allocated part of the TAC cannot disappear only the owner of the right can change if DAFF decides so,

In fact if you read the policy document there is a duty on the owner that has to be checked up on by DAFF to ensure it is being utelized to the maximum of it's allocated TAC. Fact

The same for durban.... the fishing right allocated to that despicable character will not disappear, it will simply be given to the next previously disadvantaged guy standing in line that can prove he's going to give sustainable work to 20 guys.

There are some facts.  Except for the one part that is my opinion of what is going to happen in the next 18 months.