ULTIMATE ANGLING - the Ultimate SA Fishing website
OFFSHORE ANGLING => General Offshore Angling Discussion => Topic started by: Lynski on August 10, 2011, 09:34:27 PM
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Hi Guys
I am sure that I am not the only one being Hounded,Bronzied and Black (balled) Finned by Sharks swr ? For the last three years the Shark problem has got steadily worse. My last outing it was two fish to the boat and at least Twenty five to the sharks !! How many are down there and how many Kg's can one shark eat :dunno: ? I calculated at least Twenty boats each giving Twenty fish to Sharks 20 X 20 =400 X 7kg for each fish = 2.8 Tons of fish !!! for the sharks. :shrk: :craz: The experts are QUIET and the conservationists say it is the domain of the sharks ? What about the poor fish down there ? Imagine if the Kruger Park was overstocked with Lions duh ??
Interesting is it not?
Catch u later.
Tom :billf:
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This has been raging on more than one forum and magazine for a while my advise find a new place to fish there is little else you can do.
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Eat them.
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hi tom
this is a serious problem we have here
the comercials from richardsbay al the way down to shelly beach is complaining about the same thing
i lost about 60 fish to the sharks last week
saw a documentry on tv about sharks
they can eat 20 to 30%of their own body weight a day
and the sharks is al over 100 kg. so its not to diffecult to work out howmany fish one shark wil take a night
would like to hear from the seintist whats their thought on this
and the one guys comment was fish somewhere els
the sharks are all over.
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TOM WELCOME TO THE SITE
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i doubt sharks are crusing the reefs everyday looking to eat 30% of their body weight, i wouldnt know....im not a shark.
hooking a fish off the boat is probably triggering a sharks instinct to feed on a distressed fish...easy food.
so that 20kg rockod would have lived a long happy life with sharks cruising pass him all the time....thats until someone hooks him off the boat and then its bye bye rockod...thats just an example
i can live with having more sharks and no commercials on the water
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Hi Again
Interesting about commercials.
there care only five legal commercial boats operating out of Durban and probably Forty receational boats. if each comm boat takes 150 kg a day ( i think this is an over estimate) and each Rec boat takes 50 kg a day (i think this is an underestimate) you need to look at the assumption again.
That happy 20kg rock cod was hardly ever taken by sharks a few years ago! :carp:
Catch u later
Tom :billf:
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hey
I am doing research on linefishing in KZN. Have spoken to a number of guys (recs, comms and inspectors). They all say the same thing.
There is a study about to take off, but my work will pre-empt it and I want to know what feeback to give to DAFF. Why - I am sure scientists (who I am about to interview) will have explanations. But guys who fish have local knowledge. I spent 2 hrs with a commercial skipper today who was saying that the past few seasons have been so bad because of blacktips that he is not convinced that he should reapply for his rights next year.
And multiple rec skiboat guys.
What is causing it.
And what should be done.
Belinda
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as was said by some saffa scientist (sorry dont recall, mighta been Rudy vd Elst) on a documentary on shark attacks, sharks can LEARN... They know divers will feed them so they come. They know boats will dangle an wasy meal so they come.
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Bang Stick??????? im gonna get skinned alive for this sry .
We have one but never use the thing, got very close to using it at vidal this year, especially when you loose 8 livebaits + hooks in a day.
Believe it will make it worse if you bang a shark, cause more will just be attracted to the area after the blood and guts...
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My guess is that the sharks have learnt to asscociate boats with easy meals :dunno:
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My guess is that the sharks have learnt to asscociate boats with easy meals :dunno:
:corrct: ...why go n chase a fish ..when u can have an easy snatch ..... my 2c's ... w;k
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Problem or not... Its good to see that shark populations are on an increase... And I agree with the guys that say sharks have associated themselves with boats I think that is right! It is sad about how many fish get taxed though, its really unfortunate...
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Is the increase in shark population not in proportion to the increase of their food resources :dunno:
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well the chinese found shark fin soup.
if our indian community realise the abundance of sharks etc, they could do some culling for us.
i tend to agree, with bryant. a bang stick could work.
what would be the reason, that the shark population increased so much, if it was not for the fact, that sharks associated boats etc for easy meals.
ss
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I've chatted to Geremy Cliff about this (Chief Scientist, sharks board), and he is also thinking that it is learnt behaviour. They hardly ever get blacktips close to shore any more, but they are prolific off number 1.
So I guess in the end us skiboaters have created our own problem. In the old days they were killed when caught, so not much chance for learning a lot!
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I've chatted to Geremy Cliff about this (Chief Scientist, sharks board), and he is also thinking that it is learnt behaviour. They hardly ever get blacktips close to shore any more, but they are prolific off number 1.
So I guess in the end us skiboaters have created our own problem. In the old days they were killed when caught, so not much chance for learning a lot!
So it could be that it a perceived increase in population due to increased activity around ski boats.
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So it could be that it a perceived increase in population due to increased activity around ski boats.
That makes sense...
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I've chatted to Geremy Cliff about this (Chief Scientist, sharks board), and he is also thinking that it is learnt behaviour. They hardly ever get blacktips close to shore any more, but they are prolific off number 1.
So I guess in the end us skiboaters have created our own problem. In the old days they were killed when caught, so not much chance for learning a lot!
+ Zambis!!!!
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I have my own theory.
Sure we all know sharks are being decimated by commercials, but these are generally in the open waters and thjend to be Blue sharks and makos, and I guess around the islands etc white tips etc.
The fish stocks world wide are nowhere near what they used to be, so the sharks do not have nearly the food source they used to have. The habbits of anglers have changed over the last 20 years. A few years back alsot all sharks that were caught were killed either with guys shooting them, gaffing and taking hopme to hang for a pic and then dumping etc etc. Nowdays almost all sharks are released, so the "predation" on the inshore species isnt as high. Remember Man is the APEX preditor as we kill a lot more than the Aquatic Apex preditors.
The result of this is more sharks, less food. yes sharks can learn so they have learnt that protea aliwal etc has a good supply (better than most areas) of tuna etc. They tgherefore hang around the food. Then they learnt that the boat brings pieces of sards to attract the food (tuna) and then they hald the tuna still for them to catch. so catching the fish is "Makilik soos piepie in die bad". if they do by chance get caught, then we let it go again so it isbnt taken out of the equasion. more sharks learn about the easy meals ont he hot spots so they stick around.
Solution, its not going to sit well with all, but a limited "cull" on sharks, but this will only really benefit us humans, and the hooked fish as some may have been released.
In 30 yrs of deepsea i hadnt been taxed but in the last few years in the kei it has also started. Unless the food fish stocks improve the situation will get worse.
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I respect your opinion tkei... But this is just my 2c, please I dont mean to offend anyone here...
We as anglers have no right to take 'culling' of species into our own hands whether shark populations have increased or not they are not what they were like 60 years a go. This would be a terrible solution and all the hard work conservationists have put in over the last 20 years would go to waste. Sharks are an important part of the ecosystem and since more anglers are releasing breeding stock fishes, bony fish populations have increased with most species which would then mean that shark and flatfish species have increased in population... Yes they do hang around boats because they are not stupid, any predator is opportunistic and if easy meals are around they will take advantage. Fish were here first and im sure almost all of us on this forum want to see fish stocks increase and as anglers we are to blame for this and NO ONE else. Also I have noticed that many ski boats, recreational or commercial do not release much of what they catch so would a shark taxing a Tuna really make a difference? That is not the argument though. In the end killing sharks is not the way to go, it is inhumane and we probably would not be struggling to catch fish if anglers 60 years a go acted like how we did now, so if we start doing it where are we going to leave our fish stocks? All species are important from Blaasops to Zambis they are all here for a reason and play a role in some way...
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well the chinese found shark fin soup.
if our indian community realise the abundance of sharks etc, they could do some culling for us.
i tend to agree, with bryant. a bang stick could work.
what would be the reason, that the shark population increased so much, if it was not for the fact, that sharks associated boats etc for easy meals.
ss
Nah Indians 1st choice is Shad ... :hehe: ... :clwn
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Bloody agents :shrk: :brnz: <: swr
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What worries me about culling is we cannot anticipate what the long-term effects would be. Ecosystems are immensely complex systems that are not fully understood by us. We can never tell what consequences our actions are going to have.
Culling in theory might solve the immediate problem, but what will happen in the future.
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if anything the research in the breede river on the zambies proves sharks will promptly find out where people are fishing often and just move from one spot to the next to tax some fish.
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What worries me about culling is we cannot anticipate what the long-term effects would be. Ecosystems are immensely complex systems that are not fully understood by us. We can never tell what consequences our actions are going to have.
Culling in theory might solve the immediate problem, but what will happen in the future.
Exactly (clap)
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geez dont get me started on this one, they have got to be the most annoying and costly beasties on this earth...although I can think of some other "black tip" scavenger that is equally annoying.
But the fact is our whole coast line is infested with johnnies, and this has increased 10 fold over the last 10 years, to almost ridiculous levels. I think I am going to start targeting them on our 50-80lb stand up gear!!
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WK, I accept your oppinion, and I will not have heated arguments about it. Maybe my term Culling was incorrect, in that I dont believe we should go out on shark fishing expiditions to catch and kill sharks, but what I meant is a limited take of sharks. This take however usually ends up in heated fights on the beach witht e "bunny huggers" and the "savage killers".
I know a health eco system needs the epex preditors (sharks) but I do also believe thet therer are too many with too little food (evenly spread out) to sustain them, hence the prolifieration on the hotspots.
I havny killed a shark in about 15yrs, i just cut the ****** off and curse them for ruining my trace, but they are getting more prolfic.
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What it boils down to is less fish to eat the more a shark will look for an easy meal. The way fish population has been overfished in the past leaves a shark no choice but to look for an easy meal. The way my lack of catching is going a shark is not going to make it any easier for me!
I have dived at pinnacles in Ponta and when we saw no sharks shot off a unloaded speargun, within 2-3 minutes there were 3-4 Zambis cruising around. Crafty b #*gers. They did not survive this long by being stupid.
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its funny how all the bunny huggers and the guys that stay inland is al the clever ones
the fisherman that sit with the problem know how out of controle this is
hope someone can give me a market to get rid of them
they are out of controle
at this stage i beleave a good shark is a dead shark
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WK, I accept your oppinion, and I will not have heated arguments about it. Maybe my term Culling was incorrect, in that I dont believe we should go out on shark fishing expiditions to catch and kill sharks, but what I meant is a limited take of sharks. This take however usually ends up in heated fights on the beach witht e "bunny huggers" and the "savage killers".
I know a health eco system needs the epex preditors (sharks) but I do also believe thet therer are too many with too little food (evenly spread out) to sustain them, hence the prolifieration on the hotspots.
I havny killed a shark in about 15yrs, i just cut the b@stards off and curse them for ruining my trace, but they are getting more prolfic.
Fair enough... Look that was just my opinion but in the end I have no right to even put myself in an offshore anglers shoes because I have been offshore twice in my life... In the end it comes down to what everyone thinks is best and if the occasionally killing of sharks has to be done (Which i dont believe in) then im sure it will be done in a controlled manner because from all your posts you and the other guys commenting on this thread have my utmost respect as anglers...
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amazes me that guys spend over 100K on a fancy boat , another 60K on tackle and then want to kill a shark for eating a tuna or bitting off a few hooks.... if we cull the sharks for eating our fish then we need to cull the seals that steal our fish if we cull the seals we need to cull the albatrosses and pectrals off cape town tuna grounds that dive down to eat our baits for tuna if we cull the birds we need to start culling the big stingrays and flat fish because summers nearly here and we will get another run of injured childern stepping on rays on western Cape beaches like last year ........ were does it stop? yes sharks are a pest , yes birds drive us mad in the tuna grounds ,good chance of getting stabbed by the small rays on false bay beaches its thats part of fishing and living by the sea . Just for the record im not a bunny hugger just a commercial fisherman.
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amazes me that guys spend over 100K on a fancy boat , another 60K on tackle and then want to kill a shark for eating a tuna or bitting off a few hooks.... if we cull the sharks for eating our fish then we need to cull the seals that steal our fish if we cull the seals we need to cull the albatrosses and pectrals off cape town tuna grounds that dive down to eat our baits for tuna if we cull the birds we need to start culling the big stingrays and flat fish because summers nearly here and we will get another run of injured childern stepping on rays on western Cape beaches like last year ........ were does it stop? yes sharks are a pest , yes birds drive us mad in the tuna grounds ,good chance of getting stabbed by the small rays on false bay beaches its thats part of fishing and living by the sea . Just for the record im not a bunny hugger just a commercial fisherman.
:resp: :resp: :resp:
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Excellent stuff TW! How many of the ski boaters would have released that fish that got eaten by a shark? If not you are the reason why sharks have less food. Before culling sharks consider releasing your fish
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TW awesome reply. I am not a bunny hugger, nothing wrong with rabbit stew! I agree treat the Ocean with respect if we take more than we need there will be nothing left next time the old saying is it is not ours we are borrowing from our children. We all love fishing it is up to us to look after the sea.
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i dont think i wil ever put a live
back in the waternow i must go and look for a market to sel sharkfin
can annybody help
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i dont think i wil ever put a live
back in the waternow i must go and look for a market to sel sharkfin
can annybody help
swr I wish I could give so much -cred there is something wrong with you... This is a respectable forum where guys debate on a topic such as this and no one gets angry and then you come along with your attitude about us "inland guys" and then post a comment like that...
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well i would suggest we do something about the seals tho....
miles put out stats the other day of what seals eat... a femal seal eats 7kg of fish per day to survive...
75 000 seals on Seal island.... lot's are pups, but there are other places in false bay with seals as well.... so let's say 50 000 females....
That's 50 000 X 7kg per day = 350 000 kg of fish daily....
That's 127750000kg of fish per year out of the false bay area....
Or let's say 127750 tonnes of fish.....
For comparison, the entire recreational and inshore hake trawling catch per year cobined along the entire SA coast = is about 25 000 tonnes.
Why do you think so many baby seals are washing up dead on the beaches in false bay in pupping season? Even after the GW have had their fill they still wash up dead.
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i dont think i wil ever put a live
back in the waternow i must go and look for a market to sel sharkfin
can annybody help
Watch your tone.
Enough of your negativity...
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its funny how all the bunny huggers and the guys that stay inland is al the clever ones
the fisherman that sit with the problem know how out of controle this is
hope someone can give me a market to get rid of them
they are out of controle
at this stage i beleave a good shark is a dead shark
Thats a might bold statement ...i take offence to that ... please don't generalise ....
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Marthin you are basically saying you have a better idea of how to manage the animal populations than nature does? You can't just go around killing certain animals because you have decided they eat fish
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half pint not at all....
But here's the thing... let's take elephants in the Kruger National Park.... if the population increases above a certain limit it is to the detriment of all the other animals. So they need to be culled. I'm not saying it's a nice thing to do... i'm just saying it needs to be done.
In false bay and mosselbay and any other place you have breeding seals for that matter, although the GW shark has been protected for 20 years, their populations are still very much below where they were. The seals have had a 50 year minimum head start, the GW's are never going to catch up. It is out of control for sure...
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I agree 100%... Nature always finds out ways to deal with over populations if there are over populations! Who knows 100 years a go there could of been thousands of baby seals washing up on the beach... The bottom line is we are fisherman and we didnt come first we cant re arrange the eco system to suit ourselves, we need to be responsible and deal with the facts mentioned previously...
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@ Marthin the thing is with the Kruger Park, they cull Elephants because it is such a small area, remember these Elephants used to rome most of Southern Africa until they lost habitat and got killed whereas Seals still live in the same environment they did 500 years a go ie there have been no space restrictions compared to the Elephants of the Kruger Park
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seal island for example was a breeding ground for critically endangered penguins....
In 1880 for example... the HMS Challenger stopped at what is now called seal island, and i quote "I paid a visit to an island in False Bay, called Seal Island. It is a mere shelving rock, on which it is only possible to land on very favourable occasions. The whole place is a rookery of the Jackass Penguin"
Now there are 80 pairs still breeding on the island... the only reason they haven't been wiped out there is because of the "intervention of man" and building them artificial nests.
have you seen what a seal does to a penguin if the seals can't find enough food? They tear out the "krop" and leave the penguin flapping about on the ground.....
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The difference between kruger and false bay is that kruger is an isolated population. In other words of the elephants destroy their food source they cannot migrate as they did before. False bay on the other hand is pretty much in its natural state natures equilibrium is free to maintain itself
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I have a cunning plan - lets startt cullling the real source of the problem....humans!!!
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Walker you are right but also wrong... there is a space constraint on seals, it's much larger but there is only a certain part of the coastline that is their habitat, let's call it natural borders if you wish....
We took out all or close to their natural predators in this area. We gave them undue protection. created a massive overpopulation.
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The following birds have stopped breeding on seal island completely due to the seals increase in population:
Cape Gannet
Kelp Gull
Great White Pelican
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Walker you are right but also wrong... there is a space constraint on seals, it's much larger but there is only a certain part of the coastline that is their habitat, let's call it natural borders if you wish....
We took out all or close to their natural predators in this area. We gave them undue protection. created a massive overpopulation.
Fair enough! That makes sense...
The thing is in this day and age would it be humane to cull any animal after we were the reason populations grew or decreased?
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The following birds have stopped breeding on seal island completely due to the seals increase in population:
Cape Gannet
Kelp Gull
Great White Pelican
That I can vouch for, the Great White Pelican and Cape Gannet populations have decreased a lot over the last 20 years... Now the only real stronghold for breeding Cape Gannets in Bird island off the Eastern Cape...
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Fair enough! That makes sense...
The thing is in this day and age would it be humane to cull any animal after we were the reason populations grew or decreased?
WK that is reason enough for my cunning plan......
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i think it's more humane than letting them starve on the islands....
For the brief period culling was stopped in Namibia, within 2 years there were so many seals washing up dead on shore due to malnurishment, that greenpeace actually thought they were being poisoned till autopsies were done. One couldnt even go near the sea in certain areas.
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WK that is reason enough for my cunning plan......
:hehe: they should have armed guards at launching sites and patrolling beaches and everytime someone disobeys the fishing laws they should get culled w;k
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Geez, I wish the fish were like a few of us on here today and took the Bait as easily as we all have re a few comments that have been posted. IE KK to nantes. hahahaha. Put it out there and its gobbles up like a handfull of smarties at a 4yr olds party.
These topics can get us all a bit heated as we all have vastly different opinions. Unfortunately man cannot play God, but man we have played the Devil in the harm we have caused the earths environment, that we cant doubt. In some cases (and the ocean is 1) i think we may have tipped the balance too far to recover properly, ever. Whether culling, banning, MPA's etc In most cases it wont recover fully. it may improve but the balances are already wrong.
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its funny how all the bunny huggers and the guys that stay inland is al the clever ones
the fisherman that sit with the problem know how out of controle this is
hope someone can give me a market to get rid of them
they are out of controle
at this stage i beleave a good shark is a dead shark
Don’t generalise brother !!! :flck:
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Marthin I don't think we are qualified to decide whether or not to cull seals or any animal some form of research needs to go into it first
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its funny how all the bunny huggers and the guys that stay inland is al the clever ones
the fisherman that sit with the problem know how out of controle this is
hope someone can give me a market to get rid of them
they are out of controle
at this stage i beleave a good shark is a dead shark
Glad your paying attention....
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Glad your paying attention....
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
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Glad your paying attention....
:hyst: :hyst: Classic!!!
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Catch them, use the smaller one's for live bait!
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nantes if you flake them up and add extras massala will taste just like all the undersize shad the guys keep poaching off durds beach !! durban fish cakes i miss those my china . :hehe: :hehe:
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sjoe
heated discussion here
glad i went away, my credits might go into the red.
we are looking at a quick fix, but it seems that it will take longer...............
ss
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Just saw this thread now.....
This is a sensitive subject as ther are many out there that are "shark huggers" and whilst a shark is a beautiful and magnificent creature there are far too many in our waters and they are just killing off all the sea life.
Personally I hate to see anything get wasted, in other words if you kill a creature you must eat it.
I think that a market should be created for Shark meat in SA. Flake and Chips sounds good too me. :rotfl
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Since the Chinese and Korean trawlers are too scared to fish the north east Africa coastline because of the piracy threat a lot of species are prolificating, also sharks. On the upside it would appear if more pelagics are also finding their way down the African east coast southwards.
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there is a market for shark in south africa , pity you get more for it exported to spain and UK than locally a few years ago we caught so much smooth hound shark upto 1.2 tons of gutted clean shark a night , now you hardly find a big hound in falsebay off the boats you still get them from shore but never in the qty we used to catch shore fishing . if the red steenbrass are found to be wiping out reef fish faster than those fish can reproduce should we cull coppers as well ? or how about dolphins , should we herd them together and kill them as well dolphin and chips sounds great to me like the japs do if like in florida they steal the fish of anglers lines and annoy us ? seems like if it effects our fishing negitivly we need to kill it other than try to find a way round it .
Great example being the Barrier reefs black marlin plenty sharks there , guys lost plenty huge fish to sharks , switched to ultra heavy tackle and more agressive fishing techn and now loose very few , it does happen but down to about 7% of total catch , if you want to try lighter tackle on the reef expect to loose fish to sharks. Same applies here adapt your fishing techniques , killing the sharks wont solve the problem , if you kill enough some scientist will just close the area you fishing in and you loose not the sharks , look what happened with the jigging ban up north coast. picture this - we all kill the sharks that annoy us while fishing suddenly there are a string of shark attacks on margate beach , who gets to blame us fishermen for killing all the smaller sharks that the bigger sharks feed on , it only takes a few shark huggers / sea shepards to spread the seed in ignorant peoples minds then you really screwed , yes its a sensitive issue and it gets out of hand real easy , normally it only takes one wa#k#r to get every ones blood boiling , Just saw this thread now.....
This is a sensitive subject as ther are many out there that are "shark huggers" and whilst a shark is a beautiful and magnificent creature there are far too many in our waters and they are just killing off all the sea life.
Personally I hate to see anything get wasted, in other words if you kill a creature you must eat it.
I think that a market should be created for Shark meat in SA. Flake and Chips sounds good too me. :rotfl
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a couple of questions.
Is there really an imbalance regarding to sharks?
Or are they just getting clever in finding a food source?
If the chinese, are catching so many sharks for sharkfin soup, why is there not an imbalance here?
Are we looking for a quick fix or long term sollution?
What would the long term solution be?
I have caught sharks from the beech.
I have returned all of them alive.
If i had kept them, bystanders would most probably have complained.
We are allowed to catch 1 shark a day.
Seems, i need to try and eat 1 and give feedback here.maybe we will find, that they are tasty.
Dan hou ons haai braai op krom draai.
Ss
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smooth hound , gullie sharks, makos,blue sharks and dare i say it - raggies all taste great ,none need to be bled soaked in sea water etc . once you head and gut a smoothie turn it on its back look inside its stomach cavity you will see 2 lond thisk lions along the back bone just like fillets you cut these out on the braai great or even smoked .
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back in the old days, when driving was still alowed
a kite fisherman caught a blacktip at st lucia.
the fish was about 40kg.
i asked the angler what he was going to do with it whereby he replied. .........................
well later when i went passed him again i saw 25 lieter buckets. i had a look in it and saw that he had cut the shark up into blocks.
the blocks were placed in the buckets and the buckets filled with sea water.
it was amazing to see how the shark flesh boiled in the water. seems like they were trying to get out all the amonia, or something like that.
he said the meat was good to eat...........
even today i still wonder
ss
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Watch this, a favorite clip of mine.
http://youtu.be/itvjYohS55w (http://youtu.be/itvjYohS55w)
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yip thats nature
ss
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there is a market for shark in south africa , pity you get more for it exported to spain and UK than locally a few years ago we caught so much smooth hound shark upto 1.2 tons of gutted clean shark a night , now you hardly find a big hound in falsebay off the boats you still get them from shore but never in the qty we used to catch shore fishing . if the red steenbrass are found to be wiping out reef fish faster than those fish can reproduce should we cull coppers as well ? or how about dolphins , should we herd them together and kill them as well dolphin and chips sounds great to me like the japs do if like in florida they steal the fish of anglers lines and annoy us ? seems like if it effects our fishing negitivly we need to kill it other than try to find a way round it .
Great example being the Barrier reefs black marlin plenty sharks there , guys lost plenty huge fish to sharks , switched to ultra heavy tackle and more agressive fishing techn and now loose very few , it does happen but down to about 7% of total catch , if you want to try lighter tackle on the reef expect to loose fish to sharks. Same applies here adapt your fishing techniques , killing the sharks wont solve the problem , if you kill enough some scientist will just close the area you fishing in and you loose not the sharks , look what happened with the jigging ban up north coast. picture this - we all kill the sharks that annoy us while fishing suddenly there are a string of shark attacks on margate beach , who gets to blame us fishermen for killing all the smaller sharks that the bigger sharks feed on , it only takes a few shark huggers / sea shepards to spread the seed in ignorant peoples minds then you really screwed , yes its a sensitive issue and it gets out of hand real easy , normally it only takes one wa#k#r to get every ones blood boiling ,
Great post...! Positive, Sensible thinking. +cred
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TW, I agree with a lot of what you say. if you read a post by Bwana where they fished shelly beach for a comp and got sharked lots on 10kg, i asked if it would not be more sensibvle to make the comp a 30lb comp. Pulling the fish that much quicker should help.
Having fish taxed is part of the game, but in soem natal waters it has become beyond a joke. You cape town guys cant complain, the tunny you catch end up taxing the sharks cos they generally bigger. LOL
The imbalances are a complex thing. reefs where coppers For example used to be prolific that have been severly fished out have all sorts of problems. carpenter move in as they like similar habitat but are normally seen by mr copper as food. They seem to breed faster and come in huge numbers at times. They chow everything including big live baits. They also flatten the copper roe, further harming the future capper stocks. Imbalances in nature are a very complex issue that Man tries to understand and control but usually ends up causing more harm (often in a area far away).
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i've had hammerhead shark... about hip high size.... tasted great.
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most pelagic type sharks are great eating , so are black stingrays and duckbills .
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there are 73 million sharks slaughtered a year just for their fins
www.livescience.com/1027-shark-slaughter-73-million-killed-year..
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http://www.ranker.com/list/the-7-most-delicious-shark-recipes/joanne (http://www.ranker.com/list/the-7-most-delicious-shark-recipes/joanne)
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A fishmarket in Springfield Dbn sells shark meat as "white fish".
(I asked them once what this "white fish" was.)
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Hi Guys--Not many answers-We all know the problem but where is the answer :dunno: ?? These seem to be the remarks so far :we have so far
1) Move. Crazy- they are everywhere. :nuts:
2) Use a bang stick -Oppas they are illegal and dangerous. duh (I like theselittle figurine things)
3) Want sharks but no commercials !!! :lolo:
4) Doing research and all interviewed say the same ? Research over? sry
5) Glad to see increase but seem to fish inland ! :hehe:
6) Cull the sharks-How ? :dunno:
7) stop chumming from boats.
I run a charter boat and many of my clients love to fish for sharks and it is easy to give them the oportunity but very frustrating when they want good edibles. Yesterday hooked 14 geelbek 2 and a half to the boat and 11 and a half to the sharks. :brnz:
Well it seems we must all do our own thing.
Catch u later
Tom :billf:
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So difficult to decide what to do here.
Offshore Skiboat Rec's going for edibles........ :unhap
Charter guys whose clients want to hook 'JAWS' :happ:
Charter guys who want the big edible :unhap and clients who want the big edible swr
Commercials swr swr swr swr - why the hell am I doing this - damn sharks and out of every ten edibles I bring in I have lost 40 to sharks. Government does not care. I will let the com license lapse, build a secret hold on my boat and enlarge my basement with a freezer. Do not have to pay the for the commercial right - no more nasty, lengthy inefficient dealings with DAFF, MRM or former MCM - no more dealing with acronyms. Come on - rec's can still sell - because the regulations are very nice on paper - but if you want to sell your catch it is easy (at least in KZN).
Scientists - diminshed linefish stocks & sharks are learning.
Sharks - why chase after your prey when these lovely fishers hook our next meal, tire it out and serve an 'Ocean Platter'. :shre:
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the sharks didnt learn
there is just to many of them
why didnt they learn 5 years ago
there was never a problem before
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BTW, welcome to the forum Tom! :welc:
I hope you will hang around and give us some fishing reports through the year, you know long before any of us when the different seasons start, would be great to learn from you.
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Welcome Tom, my son had the same problem the other night, 10 hooked 1 on the boat, think he was near you, this :shrk: :brnz: thing is out of control. :dunno: nothing one can do, making us all go :nuts: and swr :beer: more. Tight lines.
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the sharks didnt learn
there is just to many of them
why didnt they learn 5 years ago
there was never a problem before
Sharks have learnt - fishers in boats means tired exhausted semi-immobilized prey. This problem goes back to about 10 years ago - well that is when it became noticeable to scientists via reports from off-shore fishers. Who knows how long this has actually been surfacing as a problem. A pilot study which I have read was done by ORI and EKZNW in 2003 about this.....and they attributed some of the causes to learned behaviour (there were other issues identified). A new study is about to take off to try and see what else is causing the proliferation of sharks.
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we have the same problem down here in the cape with kob and geelbek fish light youy get screwed only thing to do is to pack away the fairy wands and use handlines , you seldom get eaten , that way you can catch more , sell illegally as a rec and fill your huge freezers and poacher compartments on your boats quicker . :rotfl :rotfl
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You know you would think that nature itself would step in and limit the breeding structure of the Shark. You would think there would be a trigger of sorts as there are in other species. When the food source is down then breeding slows down to, but that's of course if the food source is limited. I think it has more to do with the link/association between the boats and the food.
The idea that the Sharks have learnt a new trick appeals to me, personally I think that's what is happening.
Just as an example ~ We were fishing a couple of miles North of Richards Bay about a year ago and it wasn't long after we started fishing (bottoms) and this massive turtle showed up. Well initially we thought it was just one of those things and tried to carry on fishing, well gents it proved almost impossible. Every single time you re-baited and 'went-down' the turtle would be on it. To the point where after losing way to much bait and having an equal amount of hooks straightened we decided to move. No sooner had we moved and the same turtle showed. We caught a few fish but that turtle basically ruined our day completely. I've since heard from other fisherman of similar reports of a turtle, whether it's the same one I'm not sure, but I think it's fair to assume that it might be.
So here to we possibly have another example of an animal that has figured out that boats/fishermen equal food... duh
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That's really interesting zulu!
What kind of turtle was it?
What time of the year?
Which bait were you guys using?
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I don't know what kind of a turtle it was but all I know it was huge, the thing was massive... We were using big chunks of chokka and I'd say it was somewhere around the end of August beginning of September last year...
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From your description it could only be either a loggerhead or hawksbill. Hawksbills can get bigger than loggerheads (max size +/- 120 cm)... glad you guys didn't hook it...
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I can tell you one thing it's not funny messing around with a short handled pair of pliers around a turtles beak trying to get hooks out... :shk
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i would still allow a turtle around the boat, as it has no danger towards me.
I can see that when we get some big sharks around the boat, i might Sh** myself.
So the shark is rated as the apex predator........... Can anyone tell me, who is above the shark?
Who should, in nature maintain sharks levels? I think it might be
Zambi's, well they are doing a k''''k job if you ask me.
Ss
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@Sea sick
That would actually be correct (zambis, tigers, etc.) if nature would still be intact... big sharks would keep small sharks' population in control...
Now with all the long-lining and excessive fishing offshore where sharks are a large proportion of the bycatch, there is a "shortage" of large predators... what do you get? An explosion of small sharks! Let the big ones come back and you'll get the balance restored... problem is, they may never come back or they'll take a long time...
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john f
Then it seems that we are getting somewhere, to understand, if there is indeed an imbalance and the reason to it.
Long lineing aint gonna stop.
So the imbalance will increase.
I think, that some guys would ultamately, resort to killing the sharks that are a nusense.
This might be kept quiet, in order not to be badmouthed on public forums etc.
If this is done, only after many years, will we see what implications our actions had.
Ss
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We have been looking at this for some time,
And for those of you who think that the sharks don’t learn, please think again..Let me give you two examples:
1) At one destination we used to fish with Live Bonito and get smashed by the Black fins every bait when the fish were not wild, now the with the help of underwater cameras and divers with 30m viz, we have learnt that when you drive your boat onto the mark, the sharks follow suit, they stay deepish, and widish of the boat, obviously attracted by the noise of the engines, NOW we use live Bonnies they don’t eat them on the trawl, they have learnt that if they wait they will have a bigger meal....its absolutely bizarre!, they are so so intelligent.....
2) We were fishing off Durban the other night and obviously you get sharks with Dagas and Geelbek, they are attracted to the smell of those fish and in shoals they have a huge presence under the water, it was a pitch black night, lots of cloud and there was much fluorescence in the water so much that the wake behind the boat was awesome to see....As we got on to the mark, we stop and were getting the rods ready having a chat, honestly it looked like every shark in the area came to say hello, we had lomo lines filing in from all directions, 10 - 15 sharks all swimming towards the boat, and once they got to the boat they basically just swam around at about 10m under the boat waiting for a meal..
Guys to be honest, these fish have not with stood the test of time for no reason they learn to adapt to every situation and will continue to do so as an apex predator,
After many discussion with well decorated scientists from far and wide the common assumption is that the fish stocks are taking a severe knocking and are not at the same levels as years past, in this time the sharks, although it may feel that it has just got crazy over the past year, but these fish have been slowly adapting to survive. In this process, and the shear increase of boats in the water, these fish have learnt that they don’t need to go look at river mouths for mullet and grunter they now need to go to the reefs and wait for the buzzing noise of a motor and wait for a catch..........
As they in the past learnt to go to river mouths or where ever they have now learnt to go to the reefs and wait for a meal.....
We must never underestimate the intelligence of these fish, both sharks and fish......
My 2c............................its not their fault they are so BLADY CLEVER!!!
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My 2c............................its not their fault they are so BLADY CLEVER!!!
Excellent... (clap)
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Angry recreational anglers may kill a few sharks on the beach... this is the kind of irrational approach that will get no where ... you have a rat problem (or any other similar pest), do you get rid of the problem by killing one rat at a time? If done over many years I can foresee governments going the other way around and actually banning recreational angling :nuts:
The oceans' (and nature's) balance have been heavily disrupted over the last 100 years... it took a long time to get that balance... we're just seeing the tip of the problem now.... I promise you it will get much worse...
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time will tell.
Well said.
Ss
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............................they are so BLADY CLEVER!!!
So clever that not even the Durban City Council can convince them to move into the new Moses Mabhida stadium!
Sorry, I could not resist that
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I think the shark nets have also had a major effect on the balance of nature. The population of large sharks has been largely wiped out which means that smaller sharks have really proliferated. Inshore I have noticed that at my main spot we went through a phase of almost no shad and blacktail but wild catches of small greys recently we have stopped catching greys but the shad have returned in greater numbers almost as if the grey population had eaten out its food source and died out somewhat allowing prey numbers to recover.
This idea of killing sharks appears to be a cover for simply killing the fish that bother you. You can never advocate people killing an animal for simply doing what comes naturally without a major scientific study into the effects of it.
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IMHO the answer for now is then to scale up a few degrees and get your catch on the boat much quicker, and no, not bottoms, we all know that they should not be targeted at all.
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I wonder how much of what we are seeing with shark behaviour now is not only a result of 'learned behaviour' (and I have to say, sharks learning new tricks has a certain terrifying but awe inspiring appeal), but also the effects of factors that we have not considered - like the impact of shark nets.
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nets has been there for plenty of years
the shark problem only got out of hand the last 4 or 5 years
why didnt they learn before
i dont beleave that al the sharks could learn at the same time
yes i do think the nets has something to do with it
i dont think its al the sharks that got out of hand
my feeling is that its mainly the big blackfins. thats the sharks we see mainly
could be wrong
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20 years ago i fished during the shad/sardine run in durbs and remembering the guys complaining about the sharks - think they were small grey sharks/duskys???? , we caught hundreds , came back after the sardine run and in a weeks fishing caught only 11 small sharks . with the sardine run/geelbeck/salmon/shad you always going to get the apex predators following these fish , we geyt huge makos and bronzies following the snoek , hook one on a light rod and its a good chance you going to get taxed , thats part of fishing we just got to find diff techniques to catch fish , as for sharks learning sorry dont buy that for a second , zambies at breede will sit under a boat because of the noise people make on the boat, electric field motors are giving off through anodes or battery ,guys washing there hands /splashing, fish hooked . the great whites off seal island in falsebay are not conditioned to the boats , they return year round to pup yet are increadably shy and hesitant of the boat even with chum in the water it takes us upto 80min some time to get a shark upto the boat even though natural predations are happening around the island and the sharks are there.
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TW I really have to say your responses on this thread have been great well thought out and no emotional responses cred to you for keeping such a level head on a topic that is very controversial
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I have put this up on other forums. For those of you who have seen the full report, my apologies. If you want the full report, pm me and I will send it to you. This is a pilot study (limited sample base - so the results are entertaining, but not statistically significant) It has to do with Skiboat fishing in KZN and shark activity/fish loss.
One of the guys who participated is a commercial linefisher that I have already interviewed. And what a pleasure. He was so forthright about the problems faced by commmercial guys in KZN (mostly I have had very uninformative exchanges - I cannot blame them - they do not know me & have no reason to trust me).
This information came from the study conducted in 2003 about shark activity during skiboat trips. I am not sure about the rest of you but I found it fascinating. Bear in mind this was a pilot study with a very small sample size of fishers and trips so while the results are interesting, they are not really statistically significant.
There were 6 skiboat operators involved for the period of February to August 2003. The guys participating were logged the amount of fish lost per fishing trip.
The number of fishing trips done during this period was 126. The breakdown for the amount of trips made from 6 landing sites is as follows:
Port Edward – 35 trips
Warner Beach – 15 trips
Rocky Bay – 15 trips
Durban – 34 trips
Shelley Beach – 11 trips
Zinkwazi – 16 trips
The study also looked at different types of fishing being conducted
• Game fishing accounted for 52% of trips
• Bottom fishing accounted for 31%
• Mixed fishing accounted for 14%
• Bait fishing accounted for 4%.
(the relevance of me putting up these stats will become apparent when you look at the different types of fishing where shark activity and fish loss were highest.)
This is what the report recorded in terms of the amount of different types of fishing per trip in different areas.
Different types of fishing:
Bottom fishing:
Warner Beach – 87% of fishing trips
Shelly Beach – 91% of trips
Game Fishing
Durban – 85% of trips
Zinkwazi – 94% of trips
Port Edward and Rocky Bay had a mixture of different types of fishing.
Shark activity recorded for all the trips:
Total number of Trips: 126 trips
Recorded Shark Activity for Total Number of Fish: 62% (79 trips).
Port Edward had the lowest amount of recorded shark activity taking place, of the 35 trips shark activity was recorded for 43% of trips (about 15 trips).
Durban had the highest amount of recorded shark activity. Out of the 34 trips, shark activity was recorded for 76% of them (roughly 26 trips)
Loss of fish per trip
The percentage of fish lost out of the total number of trips
Number of Trips: 126
Percentage of fish lost: 44% (55 trips).
There was a big difference when comparing different areas.
Shelley Beach – had the highest amount. Fish loss occurred during 73% of trips
Port Edward - had the lowest amount. Fish loss occurred during only 6% of trips
The total number of fish lost during the 126 trips: 341 fish.
That works out to be roughly 2.7 fish per trip, but there is a big difference of how many fish were lost in different areas.
These are the 3 areas where the most amount of fish were lost.
• Warner Beach – 46% of the total number of fish lost (156 fish) during the 15 trips. (roughly that works out to be 10 fish per trip).
• Shelley Beach – 26% of the total number of fish lost (88 fish) during 11 trips (8 fish per trip)
• Durban – 16% of the total number of fish lost (54 fish) during 34 trips (about 1.6 fish per trip)
Different types of fishing: Variation in shark activity and fish loss
Both shark activity and fish loss were higher during bottom fishing trips in comparison to game fishing.
Bottom Fishing
Number of Trips: 39
Number of Fish lost per Trip: 6.5 fish
Game Fishing
Number of Trips: 65
Number of Fish lost per Trip:1.2 Fish
Very interesting, but I wonder why?
Fish Loss and Water Depth
More fish were lost when fishing in water where the depth was 21 – 30 m as opposed to slightly deeper or shallower water. This occurred for both bottom fishing and game fishing.
Boats forced to move to new location because of shark activity.
Out of the total number of trips, boats were forced to change location because of shark activity only 15.5% of the time. There did not appear to be a big difference in fishing activity here when comparing bottom fishing trips and game fishing trips.
There was a big difference recorded for different areas though.
Warner Beach: 33%
Rocky Bay: 0%
Shark Activity: Species of Shark
Out of the 79 trips were shark activity was reported, the identity of the shark was reported as unknown during 37 of the trips.
The most frequently identified or suspected species per trip are as follows:
Blacktip – 6 trips
Dusky – 9 trips
Scalloped hammerhead – 11 trips
Tiger – 5 trips
Fish Loss: Shark Species Responsible
The report says that neither the dusky of scalloped hammerhead sharks were responsible for ‘extensive fish loss’, mainly because the identified sharks were juveniles.
The species identified or suspected for being most responsible for fish loss was the blacktip
This is a quote taken straight from the report:
‘The estimated loss of 341 fish during just 126 fishing trips, when extrapolated to the total number of trips that take place annually on the southern KwaZulu-Natal coast, would amount to a large number of fish. Bottom fishing, in particular, is affected, with the loss of 6.5 fish per trip. This loss of fish to sharks has implications not only for the profitability of commercial linefishing but also as a cryptic component of fishing mortality’
Source: Dudley, S (2003) ‘KwaZulu-Natal Skiboat Fishing Shark Activity Survey – Pilot Study’, Unpublished Report No 1/2003, Natal Sharks Board
So what are your thoughts.
Would skiboat operators be interested in reporting shark activity and fish loss? I ask because I am thinking about putting together an online database where people could log this information (actually, my husband will design it).
It might be interesting to keep it going for a number of years and see what the trends are.
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interesting reading.
Yeah, why not.
Ss
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Wow... that makes fascinating reading Libs! Thanks for that! Reckon you should get another study going asap.... no question about it!
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Wow... that makes fascinating reading Libs! Thanks for that! Reckon you should get another study going asap.... no question about it!
(clap) ..I agree ....
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Interesting indeed...
I think the difference in "taxation" between bottom x gamefishing lies on the "territoriality" behavior of bottom fish... they often occur in areas with hard structure (reefs, wrecks, etc.) and tend to stay there... this causes some sort of habituation on sharks... they know that area is a food station... gamefish (ie pelagics) can be caught in the open ocean... so less chances of shark tax? :dunno:
my 2 Moz cts
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I would definitely participate. I would also say adding species targetted would be informative. General bottomfishing we never get taxed, fishing for geelbek or daga at night we do (as an example).
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Just hope that some people don't take this as a licence to start their own campaign of shark extermination
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makes good reading . what the report should show is how many fish were landed per fishing trip . lets look at the one stat -
The total number of fish lost during the 126 trips: 341 fish.
That works out to be roughly 2.7 fish per trip............................ how hany fish were landed for the 126 trips
if i am still catching my recreational quota eg- 10 yellowtail a person per day x by 4 guys on boat = 40 fish for the trip if i am loosing 2.7 fish to sharks per trip that loss is totally exeptable to me . The report does not show what the total tonnage was of fish caught commercially to what was eaten by sharks . if you were hooking only 5 fish per trip and getting taxed on 3 of those per trip then i would say its an issue . good example is snoek down here last weekend in buffels one commercial got a school of 30 fish - lost 23 to seals and got 4 halves back and rest heads .........................thats a seal problem . but once the fish move outside the piont its not nearly as bad with seals .
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Unfortunately, fishing is not very good off Durban, other than geelbek you would rarely catch quota, and gamefishing just about never. If you get taxed once or twice you are probably going home with no fish at all.
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Awesome read, thanks Libs,
Just a quick add,
If any of you guys have the time to chat to someone with a world of knowledge of this point, try get in contact with Mark Addison who is based in Umkomaas. They have done some very interesting studies on the shark issue and why it "seems" as though the sharks are worse for us anglers.
The idea of fish stocks decreasing, and sharks becoming residential on various marks is a reality,
For example at Aliwal Shoal, you have a bunch of resident Blacktips around that 60-80kg mark that are always there, some of them even have names, :nuts: but the reality is that if due to lack of fish stocks, like sardines, these fish have learnt to find an easy meal on the most common marks/structure then we will have these resident sharks where ever we have a have a decent eco-system.
Research has shown that in some cases, the sharks do follow the shoals of Daga and Geelbek, probably because of the strong cent they carry and because of the huge presents they have under water, for those of you who dive, you can actually hear the Kob making that grunting under the water, and many experienced diver will back this up.
So with the kob and geelbek coming to all the main marks, so do the Sharks. As described by an experienced commercial diver, "its as though they are waiting in a line at Mcdonalds" this was after a deep commercial dive at one of the wreck marks off Durban, he basically said that the shoals of fish were on the bottom around 0-7 meters and above that surrounding them was those smaller Blackfins just hanging around.
Sharks have a hard time to get food on their own, and if the sharks get a free meal from the recreational angle, it is a recipe for disaster, because they learn way too quickly and become residential.
Before we used to hook the planty on live baits, a mackerel or shad, NOW these sharks have learn to leave that "small" bait alone because if they do they will in turn get a larger return...as you hook a BEK, three, four winds and its eaten...with no exception!!
The strange thing is, anglers will still fish for Bek when the sharks are that wild, I was out the other night recording a commercial catch, and basically watched four boats, with average 3 anglers per boat, hook maybe 20-30 fish in the space of 1 hour and EVERY SINGLE one got eaten.........EVERY ONE!!
NOW this in its own can give you an indication as to why the Sharks are SO wild on the main marks??,,that amount of food, Sharks could never match that naturally...
Its a topic that I have been so irratated with for some time, because I have lost some amazing fish to sharks and it just puts a sour taste in my mouth but as anglers and maybe by us not changing OUR habits is making this issue a giant problem throughout our coastline..........
My 2c.........
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It might be interesting to keep it going for a number of years and see what the trends are.
Excellent info. Thanks
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Count me in to help with a survey when started.
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Well done Libs a great effort (clap) -Would be happy to participate-Results would probably change from 2003 ?
Just hope somebody will take notice !! :nuts:
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I think it would take a a little while to build up enough data for it to be statistically significant, but once the information is there and we start doing reports, getting some publicity in the media etc, I think it would be difficult for the powers that be to ignore it.
Imagine if we get enough people logging their information and then get a national newspaper or Cartblanche to point out that government is ignoring information being voluntarily contributed by fishers. Ang getting the information into the public domain would not be difficult.
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C'mon then B... get this one going... you will have plenty volunteer feedback.
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Well, what we need to do to start this database is get some feedback from people about what type of info guys would want to log.
Basically, what you want is a user-friendly system that allows even technologically challenged people to use it (like my folks - who phone me everytime they try to use google). And I am not implying guys here are technologically challenged, but here are some fishers out there who never use the net.
The thing about designing a database is that it is like building a house. Having a good architectural plan to start with is critical because adding important stuff onto an existing database is a pain (Imagine having the basic structure up and then discovering that you have to tear it down because you failed to put in plumbing, or that the brickwidth in the foundation is not wide enough for you to add a double story). So as much information about what people would like to input would be great.
I also think this database should include more then just taxing reports. Some of the stuff I have picked up talking to the guys who fish off-shore (rec's, com's and charter guys) is that what you catch/ what is available changes yearly but regulations do not change to reflect this.
One commercial guy I spoke to from Toti told me that this year there have been hardly any geelbek there, so he has been going for kob (which according to the latest research is dangerously exploited - but where he fishes is prevalent). Some of the guys from other areas have had a great season for geelbek. The latest report on 74 in KZN say that despite the ban on fishing, stock have not recovered. Again, guys fishing offshore in different areas have told me that in some places, 74 are the most prolific fish.
A common complaint that I have heard is that although they try and give this feedback to government or in KZN, EKZNW but there is little attention paid to this.
My problem/but solution here is that our government's new sexy issue about managing natural resources sustainably is not to just use scientific information but to use 'indigenous' knowledge, or traditional ecological knowledge (TEK). The use of the word indigenous unfortunately suggests or implies restrictions - only indigenous people should give input. Frankly, from my perspective, someone who has been fishing for 10 - 30 years, or even 3 years in a particular area has indigenous or traditional knowledge.
One of the guys I spoke to recently, Carey Steele-Boe from RFS told me that in the WC in the areas that treknetting has been stopped, this has resulted in a huge increase in steenbras, big mature adults in what has been identified as 'nurseries' for this species. At no point has he ever been asked to contribute his 'traditional' knowledge to DAFF about what is going on in his area.
This morning, I had a chat to about 9 - 10 guys who where either charter or commericial fishers - no-one from government or any of the fisheries research institutes has ever gone out as an offshore observer - and these are not the first guys who have told me this - despite that fact that they have literally offered 'open invitations - they want the TPTB's to see what actually goes on (despite ocean-based observers is being emphasized in so many policies - apparently, limited involvement here).
I am horrified by this - been out with commercial guys, inspection patrols, and about to do some charter trips - how could I even write about this without actually having some idea of what happens - like taxing. Do not get me wrong, scientific research is important but so is research where the person doing it is 'embedded' (my mate Mic spent months living with the San in the Kalahari to see how cellphones impacted on community interaction - anthropologists - go figure).
Taxing was one of the biggest problems mentioned today, but a whole bunch of things came up that I have never considered. BTW, complete kudos to nantes, who has posted here a few times and who set this up for me. He contacted me completely of his own accord, offered to get a bunch of guys together to talk to me and organised the whole thing - cannot tell you who helpful this was, getting both the charter and commercial guys to talk about the problems they face - Thanks Nantes, and Tommy for the use of your boat.
The one thing that has become apparent to me after 12 or 13 odd years of doing public policy research is that having a generic national policy can be dangerous, it ignores dynamics specific to very localized areas. Successful regulations and policies are those that take into account the specific policy context - believe me, I have done research on so may areas - to name a few: the St Lucia dune-mining, dog-racing, invasive species, assymetrical sexual selection in birds, biodiversity decline in forestry plantations, affirmative action, AZT adherence and the disability grant, pollution by chemical companies. The policies that work properly are the ones that are designed for specific areas, and the only way that can happen is if there is massive stakeholder input.
The truth is I have no idea how this database will affect fishing regulations, dealing with government is like betting on the ponies. The favourites have the best chance, but low odds. The outsiders or wildcards have better potential returns, but who knows.
I do know one thing though. Organised activity by a group of people who have the passion to pursue it and a vested interest does result in returns.
I do not know how many people have seen the new small-scale fisheries policy, but this is a good example. An NGO called Masifundise has been representing subsistence/artisanal/small-scale fishers in WC. Some of the members of this NGO are also attached to PLAAS, an academic branch of UWC.
They took the former MCM to court in 2007/8 about the lack of recognition of subsistence fisher needs. The result, the Equality court instructed MCM/now DAFF to come up with a better policy that catered to subsistence/artisanal fishers.
Masifundise has had a huge role in constructing the draft policy (the public feedback is currently being reviewed). But for the subsistence guys in KZN, the policy is not helpful. It grants 'community rights' and TURF allocations (Territorial User Rights of Fisheries) to subsistence/artisanal fishers. Emphasis is on identifying 'subsistence communities or towns & guys who fish off boats). Once the communities have been identified, they decided how quotas within them will be allocated.
There are a number of subsistence communities in KZN, but so many subsistence guys fish off rec permits and are rock and surf anglers. They might fish in groups because of safety or because of the area (on those piers still open), but the policy will not suit them. How will 'communities' be identified. Then who decides who gets to catch x% of the quota. I am not sure how many guys here have fished off the Durban piers with the subsistence guys, those who have will know who intense things can get.
But the point of that diatribe is that the subsistence guys in WC organised (to some extent). They also got hooked up with the right NGO/academic unit. The policy that is out there suits them.
The latest report I looked at has focused on the proliferation of charter-boat operators in KZN. Currently, no policy exists to 'manage' them but it is on the cards. KZN has (as far as I know) the biggest charter-boat sector in SA. If the guys here do not get involved now, policy will be set by DAFF and who knows if they will pay attention to KZN. The linefish sector is up for review - and that means everyone who participates will be affected, again, rec's (shore and offshore), com's, charters and sub's.
Another new and sexy issue being pursued by the TPTB's(along with NHI, nationalization and land expropriation) is the idea of fisheries co-management. Basically, this recognizes lack of gov knowledge to make regulations or enforce them.
Co-management structures involve user or stakeholder participation where decisions about policies, regulations and governance are too some extent decided by the resource users - our hake fisheries approach is a good example because it shows you how much clout the fishers here have had in effecting regulation.
So for line-fishers the window of opportunity exists. But organisation needs to happen now. The policies that get published as 'drafts' are usually signed off on and agreed upon before the public gets to see them. The amount of naughty boy politics that I have now seen in so may sectors where 'public comments are invited' while the backseat boys have already decided what will happen is scarey.
My opinion, not fair to make policies in KZN that disadvantage the WC or vice versa. And I have not even touched on the EC.
Frankly, an online databse that allows guys from all the provinces to log their info is what is needed. Again, from what I have have seen, submitting reports to DAFF is limited in terms of input, gets no feedback and limited attention.
My big boss (the Vice Chancellor of our humanities college) has just identified 3 CRITICAL areas where he is going to release special funding.
1 of them is 'Indigenous/Traditional Knowledge systems' and the the other is Maritime/Marine Studies.
Great glee for me, in the entire of UKZN, I am the only person in Humanities doing this type of research - so potentially I get a big cut of the pie. My direct line-manager (totally brilliant chap that I have known since 1995 cause I actually studied under him) has been jumping all over me to get the PhD out of the way - apply for this funding and get a research programme started.
There is more money I can apply for from the National Research Foundation, from sponsor countries like Norway etc. I cannot in anyway misuse these funds....every penny spent needs to be accounted for, logged, audited, double checked....weighed, measured.lol.
It all goes to research. Great potential but I need participants. I worked out that for my face-to-face rec surveys, for every 10 hours I tramp the beaches (not fishing, even when a run is on - and that hurts - fishing ban remains till PhD goes in) I get 1 complete survey - totally blows when you go up to a guy in waders with about six rods and multiple fishies tail-up in the sand and ask him if he could fill out the survey and he say - actually, I don't fish).
My end aim - a nice big research institute located at UKZN completely devoted to fishing - linefishing to start with, but who knows where it could lead. And not just for KZN, for SA.
So give me some ideas and what type of info you guys would like to log in this database. We (Hubby and me are ready to start as soon as possible - in fact my husband loves the idea and is raring to go).
We can take a look at how things progress, maybe will will need to set up a few face-to-face meetings in the future to fine-tune this at some point.
Ideally, the database should have no costs involved for guys who want to input their info, later, when gov realizes that is is important we can make them pay a user fee to get the info (thus supporting any database costs).
Actually, that idea appeals to me - make the biggest shark of all pay for info on shark taxing (and other things).
Okay, I am typed out but eagerly awaiting feedback.
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Here are some stats from ponta do Ouro this passed December, 5 days fishing - 46 strikes, of those hits about 7 fish boated and about 7 fish lost, the balance were all taxed!! about R1500 worth of gear lost due to cutting off and bite offs. The main culprits were Zambezi's and black tips, this was between 25-mt-rs of water. if I had it my way I would have drum lining and bang-sticking the buggers!! But that's just out of frustration, all the sharks were either long line releases or cut of at the boat.
we lost a lot of gear, but maybe it means a healthy reef system? who knows? but i would have gladly shipped a bunch of fins eastward at the time!!
but there is some great info here :shre:
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Great contribution Libs! Amazing the complexities that lurk behind a seemingly 'not so complex' problem... :cnfzd Keep up the good work... it's people like you who will eventually make the difference...
Oh, and to Nantes... from initially dissing us binnelanders and pointing fingers, cred to you for actually putting your money where your mouth is. We're actually all in the same boat here, all concerned about the problem and all keen to do our bit to find a workable and sustainable solution... big ups to you and Tom for taking this further. We're behing your concerns all the way...
:win:
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hi reefman
sorry if i affended you by pointing fingers to te binnelanders
its just all the pm.s i got was from the binnelanders that told me we dont have a shark problem and i dont know what i was talking about
i even got threads from some. thats why i made that comment
i appologise for that and every one else i affended
thanks to tom for giving us a place to have that al importing meeting and a special thanks to libs for taking the time to come down from pmb to listen to us
sure we wil get some results
nantes
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I am in, let me know how to start
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hi reefman
sorry if i affended you by pointing fingers to te binnelanders
its just all the pm.s i got was from the binnelanders that told me we dont have a shark problem and i dont know what i was talking about
i even got threads from some. thats why i made that comment
i appologise for that and every one else i affended
thanks to tom for giving us a place to have that al importing meeting and a special thanks to libs for taking the time to come down from pmb to listen to us
sure we wil get some results
nantes
:hehe: I gave you a credit for your applogy, but unfortunately it does not bring it back into positive. Any way for certain things it is better to be negative. :lolo:
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idea is to list all fish caught and sizes per trip , those returned /tagged/kept .GPS location or general area /zone .time in hours spent on water . daytime or night .fish species taxed, est size of that fish eaten,were in water colum it was taken by shark ie - surface/bottom/midwater.tackle used as well as line class . for kob/geelbeck also keep the otolith for age and size data on all fish kept .
a data base of all fish caught in a specific area will tell you the health of a reef/zone etc .
time on water will also indicate health of a zone -ie you catch 100 fish in 2 hours or you catch 1 in 2 hours fishing.
day time or night could indicate a pattern for shark taxing.
species of fish taxed , size,were are all indicators that help determine if the sharks are attracted to the bigger fish ,wether they are shadowing the schools of fish as natural predators and nailing a hooked fish straight away - on bottom or are attracted from a distance - top water / midwater .
tackle used/line class - fewer fish getting eaten on heavy gear than on dropshot gear , would then be a good indicator to upgrading tackle/line class .
otolith are growth indicators [ small bones in head region/ like rings on a tree very good to get an idea of the age of the fish - mature breeding stock etc , that info with tagging returns and shark tax can givee a good picture of the population health of an area or species .
NOW the crunch . this can all backfire for you guys heres why - lets take geelbeck you go out and catch fish , return all the info , some scientist sits and feeds all that info into his computer [ never goes to sea because he gets seasick ] and gets this back ----------
boats are catching lots of big mature [otolith research] breeding stock geelbek , infact they are really hammering the stock in certain areas - due to the fish being in certain areas more so than others - must be breeding stock , sharks are eating 1/2 that fish hooked by the fleet of recreational to add to the problem , the commercials are now complaining that the recreationals/charter boats are catching too much thats why there catch returns are down - who gets screwed the recreationals !!!! its happened before , our geelbek catches drop for 1 year[ because its a cycle] the recs get screwed down to 1 fish pp , the next year the commercials land catches over a ton a night per boat 15-20 boats fishing a night , so much that the buyers refuse to buy the fish as the factories dont want it .
its so bad now that most of the commercials dont tell the truth on their catch returns because they know some scientist will pick it up and correct the wrong .
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I'm not sure how many of you fished Durban in the 80's? I have seen reference to 10 years ago etc. but what about 30 odd years ago?
I fished on pick with my Oldman in those days for Rockcod. We had the odd shark take the bait but did not get taxed that often at all. During these times an anglers response to catching a shark was to wound it and put it back in the water hence feeding its mates. It was cruel times. Keep in mind that years prior to it plenty of large sharks were hunted due to their prolific attendance caused by the whaling activity at the time.
Some interesting information has surfaced in this thread. An example is Shelly (Protea) stats of being most rampant when taxing is concerned. Now Protea is also where you will find large sharks and not just juveniles that indicates a very healthy eco system. The mallards comp held at Protea (reference was made to line class) has an open line class. This enables you to get fish past the sharks. What I need to mention however is you need to have some experience in a) Knowing the class of the fish when it hits. This determines your immediate action here after. b) Know how to handle a boat quickly and efficiently with a crew to match. Yes some do get taxed but what i found when yellow fin was concerned, it was mostly the shoal size at the time. The larger specimens give you a proper 200 - 300m run, this coupled with the boat travelling with it does give you some extra time on the fish. However not on light tackle not anything lighter than 30 pound. There are days on Protea where you cannot find a shark but then again no other fish either.
Past experience in Durban hunting gamefish was as follow. When getting knocks on the surface out of the normal hotspots the fish were landed with no sharks been witnessed. With Couta as soon as you get a knock or two it only takes 15 minutes and the sharks start taking your baits. This increases to the extend where the hooked shark gets taxed by other sharks. The following day the bites are scarce but you fail to even hook a shark even if you tried ... weird!!
Some facts that remain.
1. The release of sharks over the last few years have had a positive effect on their numbers.
2. If there is shark there is other fish. They can also be an indicator.
3. Sharks have always been clever we are only taking notice now. So is the other fish as well.
4. Nature will sort out imbalances and have always done so.
5. There are still large sharks. Durban however I see as a nursery for sharks due to the amount of bait available to them. Hence the huge amount of smaller sharks around.
6. Tried and tested - the 20-25m line is where you can catch a shark at will. Funny that in KZN North it is the gamefish line.
7. Abundance of shark on the reef systems are caused by the decimation of the inshore nurseries we used to have when our river mouths were open.
Just some insight into my theory that other fish learn just as well as sharks learn. Over the past year or so, after a dismal previous season, I decided something has to change. I acquired some special mapping software from my pal and started studying areas I intend to fish. Careful attention was given to structure and types of fishing normally done on these areas. My range was 60km from launch site and no rock was unturned during the planning. I concentrated on fishing areas unfished, if I fished an area that is common I would change techniques entirely to the norm and I would target depths normally not considered.
Well the results proved that fish learn that a jig hurts them and it leaves a lasting impression. They also are able to change habitat. How else have they survived this long. They are also able to distinguish a high pressure area from a low pressure area.
If the above works then sharks are no less intelligent. They are animals of instinct.
If only we have eyes in the ocean. Mankind interferes to much. They were fine without us and we need to live with it the way it is.
I feel sorry for the commercials as it really impacts on their livelihood. We have to agree that someone has to bring the fish to the stores for mankind and it is no easy task.
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Well done again Libs (clap) --Hope all us Fishermen/People dont waste your time and let you down ??
You are going to get a flood of Demands/Ideas on what to do.
The two Lynski boats will be glad to help.
Let me know where your site is-what info you want (with perhaps a little suggestion box).
If you like I will put a note out to the Members of the Durban Charter Boat Assocation asking them if they would like to assist in your info gathering?? :dunno:
I would be bold enough to suggest that you be honest and transparent with your info gathering and "giving" as one of the guys has rightly said in the past info has been "collected" then come back to bite us on the bum.
Perhaps the organisers of this site could also assist you (hint !) w;k
Catch you Later
Tom :billf: Over and Out ???
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Hey Tom
I hope I am completely flooded by replies. As many as possible. And if you can get feedback from guys, please.
In terms of the database and transparency/honesty. The type of info inputted will be determined by the guys who want to put it in - my role here is as a channel, a conduit. I have no agenda here, beyond genuinely wanting to be involved in some way to help the fishing sector. The info that goes in, the types of reports, how, if and when they are taken to gov will be determined by the guys who put the info in.
Research for me has to be objective - I am only here to reflect your opinions.
And I will never burn anyone in my research ever, ever. When I do research, I am as open to opinion as possible. Try and think of me as an irrrigation channel that just conduits the opinions of the guys who participate. For me, it would be bad research to impose my own opinions. Bad, bad, bad.
The past 2 years, chatting to a whole bunch of guys who are rec's, comm's, charters is that there are some big problems which no-one in the former MCM/now DAFF is paying attention to. Taxing in this province (and others) is just one issue (Thanks to the guys nantes set up for a chat - and my sources down up an down the rest of the coast).
There are a whole bunch of issues that have come up. All I want to do is get as accurate report back as possible from the guys out there. Everyone involved will see every step of the database phase, how info is entered, how it is analyzed. Again, at the end of the day, I am a piece of machinery working for you guys. As long as the info accurately reflects your opinions, as long as your are happy with the analyses, I am happy. My job is not dependent on gov, or any research institute............I am just there to tell people how you feel.
And the sugggestion box....definitely. This is all about what you guys want....not want I want to hear.
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went out fishing for some geelbek yesterday
found shoals of bait next to the southpier. wasnt to long and i was of to the deeper reefs. tried bout 6 or 7 spots with no luck
on the way home i stopped at one of my shallow spots.ant yes the fish was there. hooked 16 fish
got home wih no fish . they all got eaten. no not by us . by sharks
but i didnt mind. as you all know they are endangers and there is only a few of them left and they are on the endangeres list
cant wait for the next good day to go and feed them again
nantes
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went out fishing for some geelbek yesterday
found shoals of bait next to the southpier. wasnt to long and i was of to the deeper reefs. tried bout 6 or 7 spots with no luck
on the way home i stopped at one of my shallow spots.ant yes the fish was there. hooked 16 fish
got home wih no fish . they all got eaten. no not by us . by sharks
but i didnt mind. as you all know they are endangers and there is only a few of them left and they are on the endangeres list cant wait for the next good day to go and feed them again
nantes
At least you haven't lost your sense of humour!! :rotfl
Perhaps the organisers of this site could also assist you (hint !) w;k
Tom
Tom, what do you have in mind? Admin is fully behind research/conservation efforts... will do whatever we can?!
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Nantes at least your cred will be flush soon.... + Cred for the humour!
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Hi all, I'm Lib's husband and I've begun work on the "shark activity database". I'm actually quite excited about doing this, it will be good to make a database that's actually useful to normal people for once!
As part of the attempt to make the process as user-friendly as possible, I'm intending to use a fair number of drop down lists so that users don't have to type stuff in all the time. In order to do this, I'm going to need a bit of info from you guys. Although I'm an enthusiastic (but mostly unsuccessful) shore based fisherman, my knowledge of boat-based fishing is pretty much non-existant. For example, I don't actually have much idea what fish species you guys are targetting, or catching. One thing I'm going to need is a list of the fish species that you encounter, and what category best describes them (bottom dweller etc. etc.)
Other "drop down list info" I'm going to need includes tackle types (dropshot, heavy etc. etc.) and line classes. Also, I need some idea about how you guys classify a fishing spot - is it in terms of water depth, reef presence, distance from shore... or what exactly?
I'm sure I will have plenty more questions and requests for info as I work my way through this... but I don't know enough about your type of fishing to ask more at this stage. The best advice I can give you is to assume I know nothing (safe assumption!), and provide more detail than you would when speaking to each other :hnthnt:
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Cred to you Libs !
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:welc: Keith ...
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Welcome Keith!
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For example, I don't actually have much idea what fish species you guys are targetting, or catching. One thing I'm going to need is a list of the fish species that you encounter, and what category best describes them (bottom dweller etc. etc.)
Other "drop down list info" I'm going to need includes tackle types (dropshot, heavy etc. etc.) and line classes. Also, I need some idea about how you guys classify a fishing spot - is it in terms of water depth, reef presence, distance from shore... or what exactly?
Keith I will attempt to answer some questions as best I can. This will be from an offshore point of view.
Firstly I would think water depth will be important and should be reflected in its own column with 5 m Intervals up to about 200 or 250 meters. Reason for this is depth might indicate a higher occurrence in itself and some do drop baits down to 250m. Anything deeper would be broadbill fishing. So the last box should be 250m+.
Then the area should be indicated as REEF, WRECK, BETWEEN STRUCTURE, LEDGE OR DROP, HOLE and OPEN WATER.
Line classes is best to keep simple and one should choose the closest option in pounds 20, 30, 50, 80, 100, 130 or OPEN.
Fish categories can be BOTTOM, GAME, BILL, FLATFISH, SHARK (in case one actually targets them).
Species there is plenty but a separate drop down will be required for specific shark species as this will be informative.
I will post a spreadsheet here with some of the species.
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Thank you Tunaman, thats exactly the kind of info I need!
A question that's just occured to me: if you lose a hooked fish to a shark, do you always know what species you had hooked?
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Here is the spreadsheet. It contains the majority of species as mentioned.
Good question: It will vary from angler to angler but majority of the time say 70% you can tell and most of the time it will be as an example between a bek or cob. The fish one targets and their abilities give you and insight. Another example for a reasonably fast running surface fighter (considering your methods) will be a Couta or Wahoo.
Another collumn might be required for Technique....TROLLING LURE, LIVE BAIT, BAITING, JIG, DEEP DROP, SURFACE POP etc.
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Here is the spreadsheet. It contains the majority of species as mentioned.
Good question: It will vary from angler to angler but majority of the time say 70% you can tell and most of the time it will be as an example between a bek or cob. The fish one targets and their abilities give you and insight. Another example for a reasonably fast running surface fighter (considering your methods) will be a Couta or Wahoo.
Another collumn might be required for Technique....TROLLING LURE, LIVE BAIT, BAITING, JIG, DEEP DROP, SURFACE POP etc.
Good stuff, thank you! That's a comprehensive list of species in the spreadsheet, very useful (clap)
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@Keith and Tunaman... great stuff guys! +cred...
Keep it up!
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Hi Keith
You will give us the site?
Careful you dont get too finicky on this ! Dont know if every angler would like to spend time on 5 m intervals(.From 40 m to 600m could be Marlin and sailies as well a Broadbill.) Or even exact line strengths?
MOST of the time anglers will know what fish was lost. Is that accurate enough for you?
Interesting that the opinion of many anglers seems to be an absence of small sharks!
Thanks.
Tom
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Tom, I will give the site once I've got something up and running for testing. Right now I'm still in the planning stage, trying to make sure I've got all my ducks in a row, so to speak.
Good point about the water depth... I was just wondering whether 5m intervals would have any "real" significance... from a fishing point of view is there really much difference between 71m and 76m, for example? You guys are the experts on this, though, so I will defer to your opinion(s) on this.
Another question that pops into mind: how often do you know what species of shark, and what size, is doing the taxing? Or do you just suddenely have no fish on the end of the line?
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Hi Again Keith
As T M says depth does make a diff for various reasons(eg Slinger at 20m and also at 100m) but it will depend on what u want in your findings.Sharks taking lines at all depths and anglers will name them but will they be correct?Getting info from all of us(We are not experts by any meansbut only fishermen in smelly clothes wo tell lies-LOL) To start your project is going to be a mission.Perhaps a morning with a number of the guys may set you on the right track?
I started this folder a few weeks ago and am now singing off.
Tom
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Hey Tom
Answering for/with Keith here. We have had at at least 1 commercial guy from Warner Beach (where the activity is fairly frequent) make the offer to us to come and do some actual 'fieldwork' and see what actually goes on - which I assure you will be done.
The idea of sitting behind a desk and giving explanations for something that is not experienced goes completely against the type of 'embedded' participant observation research that I (we) are supposed to do.
(Please note - this is not an attempt to get to go out on as many offshore fishing trips as we can - would not fish at all - would be there to record 'data' - Keith and I have a total ban on fishing - shore and off-shore - until the end of research - hence our interest in getting it done ASAP). To tempting to indulge under the cover of fieldwork.
But getting a perspective from offshore fishers will be great. Just to even out the balance here - am going out with EKZNW to do inspections as well - I need to see what monitoring is like from their perspective.
Going out and seeing what happens would be great - Because as observers, maybe more creds from the TPTB's - because all fishermen lie. God knows, the first blacktail I caught at 6 has grown from about 500 ounces to at least 1.5 kgs - Hence the title of Phd - A Fishing Tail:......................
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hi tom
thanks for what you have done and the efford you have put in
i think a few more people has take note now that we do sit with
problems
nantes
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Hi All
It seems that Nantes has been banned from the site ? We all know that he is a little rough around the edges (Like many of us fishermen) If he has a issue with another member and voices it privately is that our problem? I trust this site is not for a few who manage to express their wise opinions regulary and also advertise their various ocupations?Anyway dont want to start another 8 pages ! Unban guys like nantes into a wonderful world of fishing where all people may express their feelings and knowledge and men can take it on the chin.
Tom
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Hi :ult:
Its a very tough topic, its good to see various opinions,
And the end of the day, we are really not going to know how many sharks there are, are the sharks just every where or is this another prime case of the "bath plug" effect where when fish stocks were up the displacement of fish was vast and widespread in various areas, now that the fish stocks are low and only come to a handful of spots each year and food is an issue, the sharks that we do have left are living where the food stock is high, and by this I mean where we fish as anglers on all the hotspots.
And because they are such intelligent creatures they have learnt where to get a free meal most days and most nights through our angling spots or if they follow the Kob or Geelbek, us on the other had we are slow learners, we pursist and keep fishing those spots and we keep donate our catches to them, can you blame them for evolving?? Can you blame the hundreds of homeless people that flock to the durban beachfront when they are handing out free meals, the answer is NO.
If the shark population was SO high and out of control then WHY are we NOT catching huge numbers off the beaches?? Actually our catches R&S have decreased in the passed year, why??,, McDonalds deep off Durban has a special on Geelbek, the sharks dont have to go hunt for food, why go to the river mouth and actually use that energy to hunt a Grunter on the right tide and the right time of the day/night, when you can stay around a shoal of Bek and you will get it served to you on a platter.
I fish off the boat often, and there is nothing I hate more than to lose a fish to the sharks, but at the end of the day, I believe that we, us as humans and our raping of the oceans fish stocks have put that shark in a position that he now has to congrigate and fight for his meals.
Yes sharks are a pain, we all know that, we can research and research as much as we want, about depths etc, the fact of the matter is, is that these sharks are evolving and i'm sorry to say that in my opinion, the only way to change this would be to stop offshore for a portion of the year and definately stop night fishing.
That is not a dig at anyone, thats in my opinion and a harsh reality......The shark has been around for millions of year, he is clever creature, never mistake him for being a dumbdumb!! :nuts:
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Hi :ult:
Its a very tough topic, its good to see various opinions,
And the end of the day, we are really not going to know how many sharks there are, are the sharks just every where or is this another prime case of the "bath plug" effect where when fish stocks were up the displacement of fish was vast and widespread in various areas, now that the fish stocks are low and only come to a handful of spots each year and food is an issue, the sharks that we do have left are living where the food stock is high, and by this I mean where we fish as anglers on all the hotspots.
And because they are such intelligent creatures they have learnt where to get a free meal most days and most nights through our angling spots or if they follow the Kob or Geelbek, us on the other had we are slow learners, we pursist and keep fishing those spots and we keep donate our catches to them, can you blame them for evolving?? Can you blame the hundreds of homeless people that flock to the durban beachfront when they are handing out free meals, the answer is NO.
If the shark population was SO high and out of control then WHY are we NOT catching huge numbers off the beaches?? Actually our catches R&S have decreased in the passed year, why??,, McDonalds deep off Durban has a special on Geelbek, the sharks dont have to go hunt for food, why go to the river mouth and actually use that energy to hunt a Grunter on the right tide and the right time of the day/night, when you can stay around a shoal of Bek and you will get it served to you on a platter.
I fish off the boat often, and there is nothing I hate more than to lose a fish to the sharks, but at the end of the day, I believe that we, us as humans and our raping of the oceans fish stocks have put that shark in a position that he now has to congrigate and fight for his meals.
Yes sharks are a pain, we all know that, we can research and research as much as we want, about depths etc, the fact of the matter is, is that these sharks are evolving and i'm sorry to say that in my opinion, the only way to change this would be to stop offshore for a portion of the year and definately stop night fishing.
That is not a dig at anyone, thats in my opinion and a harsh reality......The shark has been around for millions of year, he is clever creature, never mistake him for being a dumbdumb!! :nuts:
Well spoken. (clap)
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Hi All
It seems that Nantes has been banned from the site ? We all know that he is a little rough around the edges (Like many of us fishermen) If he has a issue with another member and voices it privately is that our problem? I trust this site is not for a few who manage to express their wise opinions regulary and also advertise their various ocupations?Anyway dont want to start another 8 pages ! Unban guys like nantes into a wonderful world of fishing where all people may express their feelings and knowledge and men can take it on the chin.
Tom
Agree with you their Tom. Most of us fisherman are a bit rough around the edges and voicing it privatly is no problem as long as you do so in a decent manor. Taking it on the chin from time to time is no hasle at all.
But what was said at the end of the day was not called for and and no MAN goes around wishing death on a nother persons family.
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Hi All
It seems that Nantes has been banned from the site ? We all know that he is a little rough around the edges (Like many of us fishermen) If he has a issue with another member and voices it privately is that our problem? I trust this site is not for a few who manage to express their wise opinions regulary and also advertise their various ocupations?Anyway dont want to start another 8 pages ! Unban guys like nantes into a wonderful world of fishing where all people may express their feelings and knowledge and men can take it on the chin.
Tom
When someone has an issue with another member, sure, take it privately and discuss it like civilized human beings, not by wishing a curse on another man's family and showing one's totally racist hatred. To do that to another member would be bad enough, but to do that to a member of Admin?? Not clever. Nantes' has violated many of the rules of this forum and is no longer welcome.
Subject closed. Let's stick to the Topic.
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Fair enough. :resp:
Good poimts Castsa. :corrct:
Tom :billf:
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Hi :ult:
Its a very tough topic, its good to see various opinions,
And the end of the day, we are really not going to know how many sharks there are, are the sharks just every where or is this another prime case of the "bath plug" effect where when fish stocks were up the displacement of fish was vast and widespread in various areas, now that the fish stocks are low and only come to a handful of spots each year and food is an issue, the sharks that we do have left are living where the food stock is high, and by this I mean where we fish as anglers on all the hotspots.
And because they are such intelligent creatures they have learnt where to get a free meal most days and most nights through our angling spots or if they follow the Kob or Geelbek, us on the other had we are slow learners, we pursist and keep fishing those spots and we keep donate our catches to them, can you blame them for evolving?? Can you blame the hundreds of homeless people that flock to the durban beachfront when they are handing out free meals, the answer is NO.
If the shark population was SO high and out of control then WHY are we NOT catching huge numbers off the beaches?? Actually our catches R&S have decreased in the passed year, why??,, McDonalds deep off Durban has a special on Geelbek, the sharks dont have to go hunt for food, why go to the river mouth and actually use that energy to hunt a Grunter on the right tide and the right time of the day/night, when you can stay around a shoal of Bek and you will get it served to you on a platter.
I fish off the boat often, and there is nothing I hate more than to lose a fish to the sharks, but at the end of the day, I believe that we, us as humans and our raping of the oceans fish stocks have put that shark in a position that he now has to congrigate and fight for his meals.
Yes sharks are a pain, we all know that, we can research and research as much as we want, about depths etc, the fact of the matter is, is that these sharks are evolving and i'm sorry to say that in my opinion, the only way to change this would be to stop offshore for a portion of the year and definately stop night fishing.
That is not a dig at anyone, thats in my opinion and a harsh reality......The shark has been around for millions of year, he is clever creature, never mistake him for being a dumbdumb!! :nuts:
CASTSA well said and thought out and facts as you said. There is some other factors at play and one that hassles me more than a johnny itself is the highlighted part above. I fished the early 80's and on, and can remember how strong the rivers flowed and how the mouths were full up with bait. Shad coming into the estuary at St Lucia during first light etc. Now these mouths are closed all the way down our coast, this is partly a cause for the migration away from the inshore areas.
thanks for your contribution.
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100% Tunaman, you are absolutely spot on....
These fish are now seeking alternate food sources from where ever they can,
Whats still amazing, because these fish are all animals to habit, you will find every year even if the river are closed that you will have a few fish come back to those closed mouth to look for food. EVEN if the mouth is closed and has been for a entire year, just out of habit.
Look at St Lucia, if that systems stays closed you will still have spottings of Zambezis roaming the shorebreak searching for Grunter, Mullet and Kob, its habit, but take away that food source, and these incredibly intelligent creatures will evolve and make another plan.....like i believe they are doing now!....
With the fish stocks low, either through poor management or failing river systems, these apex predators have to find food somewhere,