ULTIMATE ANGLING - the Ultimate SA Fishing website
General Angling Topics => REEL TECH, SERVICE AND MAINTENANCE => Topic started by: Vandit on February 29, 2016, 03:37:53 PM
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During a stop start retrieve the handle often requires significantly more torque to start turning (almost a complete lock). After it starts the turn is effortless as expected.
I haven't managed to replicate this problem anywhere except on the water.
I have noticed that this only happens on very hot and sunny days - perhaps a viscosity change issue with grease or oil getting into the anti-reverse (Super Stopper II) with higher temps?
I have opened and inspected it finding no obvious issues.
The anti-reverse clearly gives a 'No grease' indication. Is it pre-oiled or assembled completely dry?
Any one have any ideas?
Thanks in advance!
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Seems tobe a commonproblem with lower end shimano reels. Stories all over the internet of guys having rotation problems with the symetre, sahara, sedona.
Is apparently a gear meshing/tolerance issue inside the oscillating gear.
One chap solved his problem on this thread...
http://www.ncangler.com/forums/threads/72603-Problem-w-Shimano-Symetre-3000FL-(think-same-w-Sahara-2500) (http://www.ncangler.com/forums/threads/72603-Problem-w-Shimano-Symetre-3000FL-(think-same-w-Sahara-2500))
Maybe it helps.
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Interesting problem this... and you actually may be spot on with you assessment of the increased temp. causing the lubes to become too thin...
The problem has nothing to do with the AR Bearing.
From another source:
I had posted a little back about issues of the lube on a Shimano Symetre 2500 FJ.
I got a lot of good ideas on what to use. After fighting with the reel I started looking closer at the internals to see what was causing the problem. I also found a site that went through the different lube types that Shimano has for their reels.
I found out rather easily that the Permalube that Shimano recommends is said to be hard to find even from Shimano as they want to hoard it and very few retailers carry it. Secondly, I found out that it is the most Heavy of the grease types Shimano uses in reels. Hmmm.
I read that the black friction ring can cause the binding too. I seen suggestions to replace it with a new or blue one from Shimano, to grease it, or to remove it. Friday night after another binding fit, I tried grease - still binding. I removed it- still binding. "Dang!"
I tore the reel down this past Saturday morning and got to looking at the guts really close. Drive gear and pinion were good. The bearings were all smooth. I even took the anti-reverse hub apart and cleaned it. What I did find was tooling marks on both the oscillating gear at the post and the inside of the oscillating slider. Hmmm. I broke out the dremel and a polishing stone I use with my guns and polished up the tooling. Much better but still catching. "DANG!!!" By design their is a flat spot that ever so often hits just right as the oscillating gear runs inside the slider. THE SOURCE OF THE BINDING ISSUE. The thinner grease was allowing for this spot to catch.
So I got out a box. wrote a letter and was planning on shipping the reel to CA. Then I remembered the HEAVY GREASE. I have some heavy lithium grease in the garage. Worst case I get to clean it again. I gave the gears I shot and the inside of the oscillating slider a double dose. SMOOTH and no binding. Needless to say I am happy.
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REEFMAN!!!! What can I say?!!!
Awesome that you even took the time to research this issue, no really!
I think my initial diagnosis of the problem was just naive - we always expect complexity to be the root of problems. After opening up the AR last night and studying its mechanics I am convinced that is is not the issue. I initially suspected it because the problem didn't persist when the AR was off or when you turned the reel using the rotor (this in hindsight may just have been the increased mechanical advantage through turning the rotor). Well this and the coupled fact that this reel is often left in a hot car and the AR may have been greased in this process - but this would only result in AR slippage and not lockup.
In hindsight the issue is obviously a sliding friction problem i.e. either gear meshing and/or oscillating cam. The increased temps obviously lower the viscosity and the momentary stoppage allows the parts to penetrate the lubricating film - creating a higher contact friction point (big no no on Al parts).
I will investigate and report back! Thanks!
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Cool. Let us know your findings...
I see Shimano tries to address this problem with markings on the Oscillating gear and Drive gear that have to line up...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/sedona/Sed%20gear%20align.JPG)
My Sedona has the markings on the gears. Wonder if your Symetre does?
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/sedona/Sed%2012.jpg)
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No markings on the Symetre Drive gear. This may be due to the fact that the Symetre and Sedona do not share the same Drive gear (or finish at least). The Symetre supposedly has Fluiddrive II where the drive gear is polished through "wrapping".
I can't see that it would change anything really, just a phase change between the handle position and spool oscillation with no interference. The fact that it is not indicated on the Symetre drive train shows that Shimano thought as much, perhaps an oversight by both.
Cleaned the whole drivetrain, will be switching to a higher viscosity grease.
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i fish with two symetre 3000 reels of the boat in the harbour. a couple of weeks back i got taught a lesson by a huge brown skate while trying for grunter. i picked up the same problem when i fished with it last weekend. whenever i reel in it would stick on every turn.opened it up, but couldnt see an obvious fault, so gave it a good service, but havent tested it yet. will try it out and see if the problem is sorted.
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I have 2 x 2500 and 2 x 3000 reels that I have bought over the past three years - have ciught many fish on them including big skates in the harbour - never had any problems as mentioned above - now I am scared!
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So I'm thinking now... (ouch now my head hurts!)
I had a similar problem with my Daiwa Exceler a few years ago.
It developed a grating feel to the gears at certain points... like it was binding.
Opened the reel up and took out piece by piece, keeping the handle on and testing the retrieve, until the grating sound could be eliminated.
Murphy's Law!!! (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/Smileys/goodsmiles/duh.gif) It was the very last thing left in the reel!! (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/Smileys/goodsmiles/rofl.gif)
So, anyway, what I found, was that the Oscillating gear that causes the Slider to move was the culprit. Underneath the Gear, the machining is not very smooth or precise, with lots of tooling marks and some shards of barbed bare metal making some very sharp ridges underneath. These sharp edges were biting into the circular rim that is inset into the RHS Plate inner.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/exceler%20z/exceler%20z%2040.jpg)
One can even see how the shards of metal were forming a grinding paste - marked by the red arrow.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/exceler%20z/exceler%20z%2041.jpg)
Time for some Grinding and polishing with the old trusty Dremel. Carefully smoothed off all the sharp shards and ridges on the inside of the Gear.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/exceler%20z/exceler%20z%2042.jpg)
WOW!! This really made a HUGE difference to the reel's smoothness. Actually couldn't believe that it would have made such a difference. The reel is now MUCH smoother than it was out the box... go figure!!
Maybe you should check this on you reel too? :dunno:
I think this could be a symptom of cheaper reels that have an oscillating gear that fits directly onto a nub sticking out the Side plate. This fitting HAS to wear irreversibly, sooner or later, without remedy (no bearing to replace), which will cause the Osc gear to move erratically in the horizontal plane, which will snag the teeth of the Drive gear somewhere... dunno. I say this, because Shimano have been aware of this issue for almost 12 years now and haven't been able to fix it or even know what the exact cause is?
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It doesn't seem that shoddy machining/manufacturing is the issue as posted in your pics. If may say, the components used in the Symetre seem to be well made. All the wear faces are nicely polished and the wear is uniform (did look beforehand for any obvious scratches and uneven/erratic wear). I suspect most of the common components come from the same line and then binned according to tolerance/condition, with the higher up ranges getting preference. This is prevalent when compared to my Sahara, but may just be a coincidence.
The Sahara hasn't had any of these issues but still has the original grease. I have serviced the Symetre about a year before the issues started.
I have reassembled now and lubed generously with a heavier grease. It doesn't quite feel like a sterling spindle now, but if the heavier grease does the job I will be be happy.
Testing it next week, will update thereafter.
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so i tested the reel last night reeling in a 5 ounce across the lawn (dont laugh). all seems to be in order. no problems. during the service i opened up and cleaned out all the old grease and regreased. i however didnt touch the anti reverse, so i doubt the problem lies there. my guess is it is lack of proper lubrication on the oscillating gear and slider. one thing about these reels, they do not like salt water, and needs a proper cleaning after each use. will update again after a proper test on the water.
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I have had one for a couple of years , and has fished it really hard , got schooled by a thresher in falsbay .
Caught many kob on her with paddle tail from the harbour , mine only recently started , and I reckoned , it was something that's bent . Well no I know and might open her up
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tested the reel on sunday and problem seems to be sorted. smooth as silk. really think its lack of a proper lubricant on the oscillating gear.
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:happ: good news! Plan comes together!! Nice!
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Good, also had the same results - a generous application of heavier grease seems to have done the job.
The reel isn't free of troubles though. Had a few dodgy fishing sessions with unavoidable splashes. Handle knob seems to have seized up... <:
Find these un-serviceable handle assemblies quite disgusting - seriously can't buy a new one due not being able to clean it out or servicing it after every dunk.
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Ya the lower end Shimano handles leave much to be desired. I think there is a definite galvanic reaction that takes place between different metals on the handles of some reels. I had the same thing happen on an Ultegra. Had to actually hammer the joint loose after it corroded vas!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/ultegra%205500/Ulteg%202.jpg)
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That is also unacceptable.
I was however referring to the handle knob bearing/journal bearing that has seized up. Is it a maintenance free assembly? As far as I can see it seems that you can't disassemble it.
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Hello folks. New member here, looking for some help. I am a fairly novice angler, and pretty much a newbie to reel maintenance. I have a Shimano Symetre 1000 reel that I am working on and everything is pretty much under control, with the huge exception of the Anti Reverse Cam Spring. I know (now) that I shouldn't have removed the darn spring but I did. Now, for the life of me, I can't figure out how to reinstall it. I know the spring arm needs to fit into the small slot on the AR cam, but I can't seem to decipher how/where the other end of the spring arm fits into the reel casing.
I have scoured the web looking for a photo that shows my specific reel and how the spring fits, but can only find other Shimano reels. If anyone can offer wisdom on this issue, I would be very grateful.
Fish On!
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:welc:
Had a look at the schematics for the Symetre and they seem to be almost exactly the same as the Sedona. Here are some pics of the Anti-reverse Cam spring of the Sedona. Maybe it will help you? Click on the pics and they enlarge.
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Thank you so much! Photos are indeed showing a very similar setup. It appears the spring arm tab actually is inserted into a small hole, with the opposite arm in the slot on the AR cam. I will try again when I get home. The spring initially appeared to be much more flush with the casing, but it has been a couple of days since my mistake of removing it. Will post results, hopefully positive!
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Cool. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Hey reefman just letting you know that the photos you shared put me on the right track. Once I sort of finessed that spring back into place the rest of the reassemble went smoothly and the reel seems to be working fine. Thanks again!
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You're welcome!
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Ok so an update...
So it is doing it again! Both a Symmetre and Sahara. Good news though...
I was always too lazy to open it up on a trip and usually ended up opening it at home. This never revealed anything as the reel works fine by then. I initially suspected viscosity change due to temperature as that was the only obvious variable that changed (being in the sun the whole day at the coast vs being stored and serviced under a roof). This time however I decided to start opening it up part by part cleaning, reassembling and function checking until I could find the root cause.... And viola it WAS the AR bearing this time round... A drop of water and the reel starts behaving erratically, almost like it partially engages in the forward direction if you stop or turn slowly. Dry it off with a cloth - done! Works like a charm. Could also explain why it seems to work better at home as the water may have had time to evaporate.
I still suspect that there is flat spot on the oscillating cam as explained earlier in this thread. Maybe a combination of both of these things.
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Interesting that a wet AR bearing could do that?! Maybe try a drop of oil on your finger and wiping the AR bearing with it. This should help repel water from entering the bearing? Just don't use grease which will cause the bearing to malfunction. Will also help with anti-corrosion...