ULTIMATE ANGLING - the Ultimate SA Fishing website
General Angling Topics => Shore Angling => THE GRINDER REVOLUTION => Topic started by: BAUMANNATOR on April 14, 2014, 05:32:29 PM
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I am looking for advice on a rod to pair with my Ultegra 5500. I am looking at getting max distance with 3-4oz lures. My present setup is a G4 12', 2-3oz & bionic finger, with which I cast 120-140m (146m measued with range finder) and a Iron Candy #3. I want to get ready for the Sardine Run and want to be hitting 180m if possible...any suggestions?
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start doing some press ups every night
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start doing some press ups every night
:rotfl
I have the 5500 and it is the love of my life - paired with an Assassin Surf Lite. Sorry, I am not much help with lure fishing but I am sure someone will be able to help.
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I am looking for advice on a rod to pair with my Ultegra 5500. I am looking at getting max distance with 3-4oz lures. My present setup is a G4 12', 2-3oz & bionic finger, with which I cast 120-140m (146m measued with range finder) and a Iron Candy #3. I want to get ready for the Sardine Run and want to be hitting 180m if possible...any suggestions?
Yoh :blush: John Holden should get lessons from you :nobs:
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Yoh! 180m.....thats punshing above weight!!!
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if you ever get there, tell us how. I am not sure that this is practically possible.
I think that the sacrifices you will have to make just to get that distance would render the rig ineffective to fish with. (at least for the gamefish you are expecting to hook and land).
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Thr only real suggestion would be to scale your braid down to something like 15lb but you will probably lose a lot of fish especially in the sard run.
Maybe get a real expert like Barry Wareham to give you some casting tips. Could be one or two tweaks to add 5m or so but I doubt 180m is really doable
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if you ever get there, tell us how. I am not sure that this is practically possible.
I think that the sacrifices you will have to make just to get that distance would render the rig ineffective to fish with. (at least for the gamefish you are expecting to hook and land).
Potato gun! :crzy
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if you ever get there, tell us how. I am not sure that this is practically possible.
I think that the sacrifices you will have to make just to get that distance would render the rig ineffective to fish with. (at least for the gamefish you are expecting to hook and land).
Potato gun! :crzy
:rotfl
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that potato gun might just secure you a permanent spot on the over-crowded beach....
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that potato gun might just secure you a permanent spot on the over-crowded beach....
w;k indeed!
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Thr only real suggestion would be to scale your braid down to something like 15lb but you will probably lose a lot of fish especially in the sard run.
Maybe get a real expert like Barry Wareham to give you some casting tips. Could be one or two tweaks to add 5m or so but I doubt 180m is really doable
Yes it is, wade 100m and cast 80m :crzy
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Only way i'll get 180m on any tackle is with one of these.
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otherwise cast at a 45 degree angle off the pier in durban free spool as you walk back to beach =180m +
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Ja, for surf spinning my mate & I have put the best possible rigs together (budget wise as well) for best balance and furthest distance possible - a total of 3 times, as this evolves every couple of years as rods and braids evolve.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently an Assassin Amia 11' Heavy with microwave guides, paired with a top end Shimano reel (4000-5000) and a good 8 weave braid of 25/30lb like Gosen probably gives the best consistent results currently, and that's with a short profile 40-50g bullet spoon. Very little fatigue from continuous casting for 2-3 hours.
We get 130m often, with around 120m being the norm when you're just warming up or tiring towards the end of a long session. I'm sure with a more accomplished technique you could hit 140m - 150m. But spinning wise I'm not sure that the additional results required are attainable, or everyone would already have that equipment and I'm sure the results would be published everywhere...
I personally think you're doing extremely well currently!!!
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I also use the Amia kob special with Soron 60 and 15lb braid with the #2 iron candy... Getting 130, with 110 to 120 average and no wind. I realise I am pushing the boundary.... Maybe a conventional Trinidad 30a and 14 ft with 5 oz bullets........ Use for jig and drop too.
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5oz is a big spoon, what are you targeting?
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I agree, 110 - 120m on average is good considering you are spinning. I think that going too heavy on your spinning gear will have a negative effect on your fishing results.To continuously cast that far with heavy tackle and retrieve your lure will leave you with shorter sessions and little energy to reel in a big fish. :dunno:
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I agree, but standing at Mazeppa and looking at redeyes being smashed just out of range is soul destroying. Took my 13'6" 36T down in the rain this morning and got a measured 168m with a 5oz....180m must be attainable. Not looking at long sessions, just have it on stanby if the smash comes closer.
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I suppose in that case it is worth a try. Good luck and keep us updated. :tite
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This is a really interesting topic. I too have played around with many rod a reel combinations looking to achieve maximum distance. The one thing I discovered whilst testing the action of spoons in the water is that the heavier spoons (above 60g) don't "swim" very well especially the bullet profiles. Obviously the bullet types are easier to cast (more aerodynamic) but the heavier S bend types swim far better than the bullets but are harder to cast as these are not as aerodynamic. Plugs are a different story as these are pulled along the surface but the bigger and heavier plugs are also obviously not very aerodynamic.
I believe the best distance setup I used was a Daiwa Exceler Elite coupled with a Sustain 8000FE using 40lb gator braid leader and 20lb nanofil line - The spoon was a 65g lead bullet unknown make. Must say that not ideal for long sessions and back was sore for a week afterwards due to effort required. I tested a 3oz CID Spoon with same setup but felt spoon was too heavy.
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I have also been playing with various combo's. The 5oz bullet really does fly the best. Truth be told I have had most fish hit it as it penetrated the water at the end of the cast(must awesome entering the water at that speed).
I really am trying to get it all together for the Sardine Run. I feel the fixed spool idea offers more with regards allowing for miss-timed casts due to the 'Viskoors' when all hell breaks out so near to the shore, as well as not always being in the perfect location to execute a pendulum, especially with people around.
I was wandering if the new EVO Assassin would do the trick?. Even though I used the 13'6" HMG this morning in not so ideal conditions, the rod is too tippy and although it favours casting, is not ideal for fish fighting.
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I think the EVO would do the trick its 14ft 6 in and just gives that xtra whip at the end , combined with the overall length and is specifically designed for cast heavier and bigger baits , im sure it will be the same with heavy plugs and spoons .... maybe someone who has one can give some feedback how it performs with plugs and spoons in the heavier range .. :dunno:
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You can get there! and several guys on the forum have the secret tools... they called BOATS( :crzy ) and were invented a LONG time ago and now days even come with alternate power sources and set ups suitable for getting to the fish.... :cnfzd but seriously 180m that is a long way and like Lucky Hook pointed out it's kind of pointless posting the wrong lure all that way if the fish is not gonna look at it. Let us know if you come right. I got a fancy Trinidad DC for long casts and it hates me and my new generation grinders give me better distance - but then my technique really not very good when I see the pros do it.
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The bullet most often is taken on the 'fall'. The standard retrieve seldom can get it up to enough speed, but a jigging retrieve breathes life into it. If the Waft Bullet Proof can throw 224m, surely a #3 candy would be within at least 40m with the same set-up?.
Thanks all for your input, all be some from left field :rotfl . I have even given some thought to the Alvey approach, but the retrieve is way too slow.
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There are also other effects to consider when trying for huge distance relating to the effect that the braid / line have on the flight of the spoon. Before the grinder and braid revolution I used to spin with a basil mannings 350/1 rod paired with a 30sl reel using a leader and .38mm daiwa line. My favorite spoon for snoek was about 90grams with a rounded keel and quite a large surface area. This spoon cast really well and "surfed" on the water when retrieved.
I thought this spoon would really fly with braid but was extremly disappointed as when I have tried to cast this spoon with the much thinner braids and nanofil it it does not fly nearlt as well as with monofilament. I believe the feathering effect of the minofilament is greater than the braid and allows the spoon to travel in a straighter line.
Looking forward to hearing other anglers ideas and experiences.
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I agree 100% with the feathering effect of mono, even changing to higher diameter braid makes some spoons fly 'truer'. The other effect is if you power cast the tendency to destabilise the spoon is greater, which affects the flight. With spoons that generate larger 'wobble' when retrieved (other that the slab and hopkins) you need to be much smoother and need slower action rods to maximise the distance. The same applies to casting a clipped bait with a grinder.
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There are also other effects to consider when trying for huge distance relating to the effect that the braid / line have on the flight of the spoon. Before the grinder and braid revolution I used to spin with a basil mannings 350/1 rod paired with a 30sl reel using a leader and .38mm daiwa line. My favorite spoon for snoek was about 90grams with a rounded keel and quite a large surface area. This spoon cast really well and "surfed" on the water when retrieved.
I thought this spoon would really fly with braid but was extremly disappointed as when I have tried to cast this spoon with the much thinner braids and nanofil it it does not fly nearlt as well as with monofilament. I believe the feathering effect of the minofilament is greater than the braid and allows the spoon to travel in a straighter line.
Looking forward to hearing other anglers ideas and experiences.
This is starting to be an interesting thread. When you say a spoon with a large surface area (broader?) casts "really well", does that mean it would fly further than a bullet shaped spoon? Or does it fly further than expected with the line set-up used? Do you perhaps have a pic of this spoon?
I'm very ignorant wrt line, etc, so can you please explain what is meant by the "feathering effect" of monofilament.?
Thanks.
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Feathering effect is similar to a tail on a kite...it creates drag and so stabilises it. Personally spoons with more rounded edges are inherently more stable than those with pronounced sharp edges....they don't 'plane' as much. This also has a similar effect in the water, which may be seen as a down-side too, as they are then less erratic (fleeing bait fish scenario).
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Thanks!
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the reason the mono peels more easily is due to it's inhenent memory. It will have the tendency to want to straighten. It is also less friction prone than braid.
It will loose hand over fist against a good braid as soon as aerodynamics is considered. braid wins in every wind situation. Its lack of memory will allow it to peel off a fixed spool rapidly, and will create tighter line coils. The spool will also empty slower (ito diameter reduction) per metre cast due to its significant diameter advantage. The reduced weight per metre is also an advantage.
I dont think mono could compete with braid in fixed spool casting (w/w).
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Agreed Chrisquinton braid will always outcast mono on a fixed spool reel. The point I was making and was mentioned by Baumannator is the feathering effect of mono and thicker braids and also the effects of mono when using multiplier reels and flatter (less aerodynamic) spoons. Certain spoons (and lures) seem to cast further with a slightly thicker braid.
The forces seem to work against achieving our ultimate objective of casting a spoon or lure a long distance and the that lure must have a great action in the water. Also as was previously mentioned if you can get a spoon out really far using 10lb or 15lb braid will you be able to handle the fish that you may hook up?
I also believe that a 6000 or 8000 size reel (Shimano range) is required if distances of over 130m can be reached consistently. When retrieving braid at about 120m the weight (water resistance on line and lure) can be felt and these reduce as distance decreases. All the pressure is on the reel as the rod is not doing any work. The larger reels recover more line with each turn of the handle and also have larger gears and shafts to handle greater pressures.
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I was speaking to Barry Wareham about this a while ago, and he suggested thinner lighter braid (25lb or so) for your average shore game setup, but also said that the more unaerodynamic the lure or spoon, the thicker and heavier you will have to go on the line, as the higher line diameter and weight tends to hold the lure better in flight.
I was watching a guy plugging for Garrick with a 5oz plug, using a surf rod, a multiplier and mono. He was throwing beautifully and easily hitting 150 or so, further than I was throwing on 11', 25lb braid and 45g spoon. The trouble is he lasted 30mins, but I agree that in heavier (3oz +) applications you won't beat a long rod with mono and a multiplier. Not too sure about mono on a grinder. Havent done that in years...
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Mono on a grinder calls for different rod set-up (less eyes and larger diameter for reducing friction). The mono also is not controlled as efficiently as braid so you get more destabilised flight.
I can come close to my required 180m with a conventional outfit...was just wandering if it couldn't be achieved with the grinder. The chaps using the EVO with grinders...any of you feel this 180m with a 5oz is achievable?. I realise the conventional takes over at longer range due to the 'feeding' of the line from the revolving drum, vs the constant and increasing drag from the grinder (less line more friction on the spool lip), but surely the heavier weight of the spoon should help?
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:hnthnt: ..Soooo...was 180m ever attained?????....Personally...I will take action in a spoon over its shape to cast further...BUT then again ...most of the fish Ive caught are pretty much 5 to 10meters off any ledge Im spinning off....
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Yes, but at cost and not always practical. Developement blank, said to be the Daiwa tournament. The use of hybrid guide setup involving low riders and k- wags. Shimano ultegra 5500 with 20 pound braid. 4oz bullet spoon gave me a measured 186m. Can reasonably expect 160m consistently. 4oz plug (needle nose with stinger setup) gave a measured 164m. The setup takes it out of you,not only in your casting, but also the retrieve...not giving you much leeway to work the plug.Took a video of the rod during cast and the recoil is something else, dont know how this repetitive casting will affect the life of the blank.
Are you the same kent who worked at Billimoria?..giving the double idea away?
This long range was purely for gamefish. Targeting cob is very different and as you know structure is everything. Low and slow and lots of spoon action,be it the wobble or tapping the bottom.
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Yes, but at cost and not always practical. Developement blank, said to be the Daiwa tournament. The use of hybrid guide setup involving low riders and k- wags. Shimano ultegra 5500 with 20 pound braid. 4oz bullet spoon gave me a measured 186m. Can reasonably expect 160m consistently. 4oz plug (needle nose with stinger setup) gave a measured 164m. The setup takes it out of you,not only in your casting, but also the retrieve...not giving you much leeway to work the plug.Took a video of the rod during cast and the recoil is something else, dont know how this repetitive casting will affect the life of the blank.
Are you the same kent who worked at Billimoria?..giving the double idea away?
This long range was purely for gamefish. Targeting cob is very different and as you know structure is everything. Low and slow and lots of spoon action,be it the wobble or tapping the bottom.
:hnthnt: ..Jip..thats me...BUT low n slow is not what I do Bud......its all about knowing where they are and how they feed and why they feed at certain times....all that techno stuff and distance aint gonna help jack Sh** if the fish aint there... :hehe: ..BUT..impressed that you actually got that 180 mark you set out to get...so well done!!...Upload the vid sometime if you can...
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Do you still use that pencil case?. LOL....good to hear its you bud. The outfit gave you away. Stomping ground Gonubie now I see.Mine was Four seasons...spoons only, 'till the braid gang left so much behind with their paddletails, that it became expensive to fish the usual gullies.
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:dunno: Pencil case???...stomping around Gonubie???...not with you.
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Glen Gariff...years back.
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Here is a photo of the rod in question. I set it up with high reel position. I was testing it here for conventional low with a Daiwa 7ht taped on. Was looking to see if it would work for both. The bend is as a result of a pendulum cast, not practical on the rocks.
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:corrct: now that is loading a rod. :resp: :toppie:
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Nice pic of the rod load. :rck"
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How do you stop the lure from igniting as it re-enters the earths atmosphere?
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This is the rod I settled on. Using low riders and k- runners. The rod is 11.5',high reel position with a trail bike handle to keep the reel "in plane". Using a large reel that is far off the blank resulted in the rod torqueing. This was the only way I could prevent that.