ULTIMATE ANGLING - the Ultimate SA Fishing website
OFFSHORE ANGLING => General Offshore Angling Discussion => Topic started by: Capt. Hook on August 22, 2010, 10:32:46 PM
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I have set up a new dropshot lure for targeting Geelbek & Cob.
Using a 1 ounce jighead I have pushed a large squid over the lead, I have then put a 7' Macarthy Minnow on the jig head.
Attached to the hook is a split ring and to that a solid ring with a jig assist hook, same as for vertical jigging.
For night fishing the squid can be a glow squid.
I will fish this on my light jigging stick with a 50lb leader and 30lb braid on my Stella 5000.
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We normally get Bek from 50m and deeper. The 1oz might be a bit light for that don't you think? I would say on light tackle min 3 Oz for the Jig head. Cob is a different story as we get them shallow but the bigger Daaga seem to be deeper aswell???
The rig you have made there looks very good though and will work for just about anything I reckon. I really like the idea of the squid. Could probably just use a squid on it's own and get results.
Nice one Mike!
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We normally get Bek from 50m and deeper. The 1oz might be a bit light for that don't you think? I would say on light tackle min 3 Oz for the Jig head. Cob is a different story as we get them shallow but the bigger Daaga seem to be deeper aswell???
The rig you have made there looks very good though and will work for just about anything I reckon. I really like the idea of the squid. Could probably just use a squid on it's own and get results.
Nice one Mike!
If the current is screaming sure then 1 ounce is no good, but the heavier jigheads affect the movment. But yes if there is a current then a heavier jighead will be required, I will have to figure out how to assemble that with such a big head.
With just the squid it does work, but the tail will give an incredible action together with the squid
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I reckon we will see results before long! I'm off into my W/S to assemble my own, thanks again, have some cred!
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I reckon we will see results before long! I'm off into my W/S to assemble my own, thanks again, have some cred!
Post a pic please
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Ok, I figured out a way to make it work with a large Jighead.
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Mike
If I put that lure down at our spot - the Bludger Kigs
will swallow it right down deep.
I am 100% sure
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Do it with light tackle and post the pics, I see Bennie does not like my "pea shooters" as he calls them. I gonna catch me one on a 10lb Bass rod.
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Mike
Make me one or two of these and I will come and try them out on my return.
I can pay for them - no problem.
I will take the pictures of the fish that takes it at my "Radio Active Spot"
Post them right here Mate
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OK, but I can go with your to Kingfisher and you can get the right materials in the colours you think will work, they are so easy to make
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I also like the first one! I like the fact that the jig head is hidden! I always try to hide the lead by making it a feature, painting it and giving it eyes.
Sorry Mike but those pea shooters are not going to work on the GT's. You are going to be replacing a lot of braid! duh
This is my own jig head I've been working on and my own paddle tail.
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I like the fisrt one you posted here =
yellow and white lighter weight one
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Me too.
The big difference between Bennie's fishing and mine is just that, he likes the heavy tackle and big lures, I like to do it with light tackle and smaller lures.
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I also like the first one! I like the fact that the jig head is hidden! I always try to hide the lead by making it a feature, painting it and giving it eyes.
Sorry Mike but those pea shooters are not going to work on the GT's. You are going to be replacing a lot of braid! duh
This is my own jig head I've been working on and my own paddle tail.
Nice Bennie, you are so talented.
Sure for the big GT's my light tackle will not work and I will go up to my 80lb rig with 600m braid, but for Durbs it is perfect
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Hehe, you right Mike, I like to pull hard, if the fish refuses, I try to pull it's head off!
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I forgot to mention, my 30lb rig is not considered light to me, light is my 8-10lb rig, then I go to 15-20lb and then my 30lb. I also have a 4-6lb that I like to play with.
For me fishing is fun and all about the fight and I want to enjoy it.
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Here is one of my light tackle rigs for off shore
Penn Sargus with a 70gr jigging stick and 10lb braid
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That is perfect for Santa Maria
Oil it well because there will be no time when here
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That looks like a wicked combintation there gents!! I am sure any self respecting bek will commit suicide on both those jigs/lure! Would darker colours (Reds/purples) not be better in the deeper depths (less light etc)?
Lekker..
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That looks like a wicked combintation there gents!! I am sure any self respecting bek will commit suicide on both those jigs/lure! Would darker colours (Reds/purples) not be better in the deeper depths (less light etc)?
Lekker..
Purple yes they are the last colours to fade in the light spectrum, reds no as they are the 1st colour to fade so at 80m red is invisible
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Bennie,
Do you have 1; 1 1/2; and 2 ounce jigheads ??? If so, pls pm me pricing. Need to order some asap !
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CARLOS asper Mike above. Remember the blood wire while in SA.
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Purple yes they are the last colours to fade in the light spectrum, reds no as they are the 1st colour to fade so at 80m red is invisible
Doesn't really matter the depth. It's the distance you are away from the lure.
As to red, wonder why red head lures work so well?? Red is known to make certain fish species aggressive. So although they may not see it from far away, when they do they may become aggressive and hit it.
I have seen the Strike Zone videos of fish following baits without eating it. They come right up to it and then turn away. I reckon it's because they are not feeding aggressively and something doesn't look natural. Sometimes your lure is in the right zone but they just wont eat it.
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again some good stuff guys.
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Doesn't really matter the depth. It's the distance you are away from the lure.
As to red, wonder why red head lures work so well?? Red is known to make certain fish species aggressive. So although they may not see it from far away, when they do they may become aggressive and hit it.
I have seen the Strike Zone videos of fish following baits without eating it. They come right up to it and then turn away. I reckon it's because they are not feeding aggressively and something doesn't look natural. Sometimes your lure is in the right zone but they just wont eat it.
Bennie here is my thoughts on colour and colour at depth. Colour at depth is where red works as it disappears hence my note to Carlos re the blood wire. We have a rig we are working on specifically on live baiting at depth and the wire is for protection against the bricks. This will be tested on the maputo trip. For the colours on the service as Mike mentioned and we all know, purple works. My take on it is not the colour so much but the contrast. I think RED might indicate posibility of blood when wahoo and similar species are concerned which might entice but I believe you either have dark colours all the way or light colours all the way or contrasting (white and black/white and blue/ white and red). Most importantly is to figure which of the three patterns are on for the day. Once you have it reload the rest. This is my way of keeping it simple and it seems to work for me.
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You also need to divide your fishing into 3 categories;
Surface Fishing - The first few meters
Shallow Fishing
Deep Fishing
From here you need to break it up into
Dark, Low Light, Overcast and Bright
With this information you can decide on your colours better
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Interesting. I did quite a bit of research regarding colours for the purposes of making/painting lures. Blood is not red under water, but rather brown. This is to do with the protein in the blood, long story and would have to dig up more info.
White and clear plastics also work well, however, white is the first colour to be lost. Now if you have a lure made up by mixing plastics with dies as is the case with some soft plastics, those colours are lost very quickly. For the most part, the object will "change colour" to become grey scale rather than completely disappear. So red for example, will appear grey from a distance and you will see the red as you come closer. The water simply filters the colours and the lure will eventually take on it's surrounding colours.
That said, the same applies to bait fish. At depth a silver shiny lure will do absolutely nothing as there is no light penetration. If you have light penetration to the depth you are fishing at, that would be the answer. A bait fish will also appear grey from a distance but as you approach it, you will see it's colours and if you were a predator, this is when you would decide whether or not to eat it.
Now we have spoken about colour. Lets talk about fish. All fish except Marlin and bill fish in general are colour blind! So why are the colours so important? Well scientists believe that fish can recognise wave length??? They see colour differently to you and me! That's another whole project. But what can make a difference is strike triggers and feeding habits. For example, eyes. The eyes are crucial as I believe this gives fish a perspective of the direction his meal is swimming as well as a "bulls eye" or a target to hit if you like. Spots on the lure is associated with species like sardines and are there to confuse the prey when in a shoal which is why they always attach from the outside of the shoal. They take the struggler's which can now be identified and singled out. Natures way of getting rid of the weak. A fishes spots or markings are important for survival and acceptance into the shoal, to if a sardine had a white body with a red head, he would stand out and nature steps in to get rid of it before it can breed. I can only guess that as with all animals, you may find albino fish??? Why else would white be so effective.
We haven't even covered vibration yet. The main attractant to getting a bit would be no.1 sight. If sight is not possible, then smell would take effect and if no smell the vibration. So at depth, especially fishing for cob vibration is what will get your catch closer to your bait and that much closer to the pan.
Hell I got too much work to do, could write a book about this stuff.
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Interesting. I did quite a bit of research regarding colours for the purposes of making/painting lures. Blood is not red under water, but rather brown. This is to do with the protein in the blood, long story and would have to dig up more info.
White and clear plastics also work well, however, white is the first colour to be lost. Now if you have a lure made up by mixing plastics with dies as is the case with some soft plastics, those colours are lost very quickly. For the most part, the object will "change colour" to become grey scale rather than completely disappear. So red for example, will appear grey from a distance and you will see the red as you come closer. The water simply filters the colours and the lure will eventually take on it's surrounding colours.
That said, the same applies to bait fish. At depth a silver shiny lure will do absolutely nothing as there is no light penetration. If you have light penetration to the depth you are fishing at, that would be the answer. A bait fish will also appear grey from a distance but as you approach it, you will see it's colours and if you were a predator, this is when you would decide whether or not to eat it.
Now we have spoken about colour. Lets talk about fish. All fish except Marlin and bill fish in general are colour blind! So why are the colours so important? Well scientists believe that fish can recognise wave length??? They see colour differently to you and me! That's another whole project. But what can make a difference is strike triggers and feeding habits. For example, eyes. The eyes are crucial as I believe this gives fish a perspective of the direction his meal is swimming as well as a "bulls eye" or a target to hit if you like. Spots on the lure is associated with species like sardines and are there to confuse the prey when in a shoal which is why they always attach from the outside of the shoal. They take the struggler's which can now be identified and singled out. Natures way of getting rid of the weak. A fishes spots or markings are important for survival and acceptance into the shoal, to if a sardine had a white body with a red head, he would stand out and nature steps in to get rid of it before it can breed. I can only guess that as with all animals, you may find albino fish??? Why else would white be so effective.
We haven't even covered vibration yet. The main attractant to getting a bit would be no.1 sight. If sight is not possible, then smell would take effect and if no smell the vibration. So at depth, especially fishing for cob vibration is what will get your catch closer to your bait and that much closer to the pan.
Hell I got too much work to do, could write a book about this stuff.
Damn I think you should write a book. So glad you fishing with me soon. I can learn a lot.
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Bennie, don't stop! I need some good bed time reading!
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Interesting. I did quite a bit of research regarding colours for the purposes of making/painting lures. Blood is not red under water, but rather brown. This is to do with the protein in the blood, long story and would have to dig up more info.
White and clear plastics also work well, however, white is the first colour to be lost. Now if you have a lure made up by mixing plastics with dies as is the case with some soft plastics, those colours are lost very quickly. For the most part, the object will "change colour" to become grey scale rather than completely disappear. So red for example, will appear grey from a distance and you will see the red as you come closer. The water simply filters the colours and the lure will eventually take on it's surrounding colours.
That said, the same applies to bait fish. At depth a silver shiny lure will do absolutely nothing as there is no light penetration. If you have light penetration to the depth you are fishing at, that would be the answer. A bait fish will also appear grey from a distance but as you approach it, you will see it's colours and if you were a predator, this is when you would decide whether or not to eat it.
Now we have spoken about colour. Lets talk about fish. All fish except Marlin and bill fish in general are colour blind! So why are the colours so important? Well scientists believe that fish can recognise wave length??? They see colour differently to you and me! That's another whole project. But what can make a difference is strike triggers and feeding habits. For example, eyes. The eyes are crucial as I believe this gives fish a perspective of the direction his meal is swimming as well as a "bulls eye" or a target to hit if you like. Spots on the lure is associated with species like sardines and are there to confuse the prey when in a shoal which is why they always attach from the outside of the shoal. They take the struggler's which can now be identified and singled out. Natures way of getting rid of the weak. A fishes spots or markings are important for survival and acceptance into the shoal, to if a sardine had a white body with a red head, he would stand out and nature steps in to get rid of it before it can breed. I can only guess that as with all animals, you may find albino fish??? Why else would white be so effective.
We haven't even covered vibration yet. The main attractant to getting a bit would be no.1 sight. If sight is not possible, then smell would take effect and if no smell the vibration. So at depth, especially fishing for cob vibration is what will get your catch closer to your bait and that much closer to the pan.
Hell I got too much work to do, could write a book about this stuff.
It is still my firm beleif that form (Shape& Size) and movement are the most imprtant factors, everything else is second like clour, smell, noise. 2 tones/contrast lures contribute to the form and are extremely effective
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Just for interest sake. Bear in mind it is loss at depth, is if you are looking down, same as if you were in the water then it would be distance.
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Oh and by the way White is my ultimate go to colour, and this is for any species salt and fresh
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Oh and by the way White is my ultimate go to colour, and this is for any species salt and fresh
TOUCHE.
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I have caught more fish on white than any other colours combined
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100% Mike,
If you have something in the water that looks like sardine, smells like sardine swims like a sardine, tastes like a sardine, chances are it's a sardine. Any of those factors can be removed and you will get some interest. If the fish can't see them, he can still feel the vibrations.
Still to be discusses... Try adding a bell. Fish don't hear per-say, but those sound vibration travel further in water than anything else. Sound travels faster and further in water than in air. Fish don't hear a bell ringing, but the sound vibrations are picked up and transferred to the brain via an inner ear. They have "ears" which is on the sides of the head under the skin. A cobs lateral line relays this info to the brain.
More important than the vibrations a fish gives off is the pressure caused by the fishes tail thrusting water as it swims. A predator can actually determine the size of the food prey from a fair distance.
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I have caught more fish on white than any other colours combined
And that is my point! White is the first colour to disappear under water.
What made the fish eat it??? First he felt the vibration and followed it to the source. Nature took over before "it could breed".
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PS, sorry for the jack!
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More important than the vibrations a fish gives off is the pressure caused by the fishes tail thrusting water as it swims. A predator can actually determine the size of the food prey from a fair distance.
Exactly why I say that form and movment are the key as these are the 2 items the fish picks up with his lateral line
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PS, sorry for the jack!
No, this is good we are learning and sharing, and as a result tomorrow we will all be slightly better anglers than we are today
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Here is a little something I wrote some time ago. I hope we can add to it and I hope it helps even if just a tiny bit!
What colour/design works?
I have been trying to work out what makes a fish take a bait fish or in our case our lures. What have you guys experienced or learnt? By sharing info we can all make better lure building/painting decisions. These are my experiences and what I have learnt and come up with after reading any information I can get my hands on, particularly with regards to fish behaviour and experienced when fishing.
Colours:
Fish are generally colour blind, they can however distinguish wave length and frequency. So essentially they can actually tell the difference. Fish have very good eye site (the fish we target anyway) but they are particularly good at distinguishing differences in colour by wave lengths. Colour also changes under water, becoming grey in appearance, but the wave lengths remain unchanged. Certain colours can be seen from further away. White disappears quite quickly.
On a recent outing, we were getting yellow tail but only on a silver body lure, there was no structure just sand. When the lure got taxed, that was the end of the bites. Why? I recon we were close to a reef where the fish were and they picked up on the flash which brought them to the boat. No flash no fish! We should have trolled in a zig zag pattern to pick them up until we found where they were holding.
We all know a white body / red head lure works, but why?
1. Red is known to make fish aggressive, not all species but most. A study of fish showed that when the colour red was brought near Fusilier fish in captivity, they seem to go crazy with aggression.
2. The separation of colour is what they will focus on. Since they are essentially seeing just light and dark shades of colour from a distance.
3. Red wave lengths are flatter so they travel further in water, so the lure is spotted from much further away.
Sight:
Predatory fish feed primarily on sight, then smell, then sound and finally by vibration. Vibration is picked up by the lateral line and then converted into sound. When a fish feels vibration either by the bait or via swirls left in the water by the flicking of the tail, fish can determine whether it is a food source or a predictor. Therefore when designing a lure, we need to consider this, we want to give the impression that our “bait fish” is just that and not a predator. We also catch more fish when the water is clean than when dirty, probably because the fish can see the lure from further away.
Eyes:
The size and position of the eyes plays a crucial part. A predator focuses in front of it and generally focuses on the prey it is chasing. A bait fish’s eyes are positioned so it can see behind it around to directly in front, above it but interestingly not below it or directly behind it’s body. Most predators will try to eat its prey from the head first and will use the eye as a target. I watched the Strike Zone live baiting DVD and noticed this to be evident when Yellow Tail harassed the bait from the side and seem to hit the bait around the eye position. We could consider this when positioning eyes. Some bait species have spots along it’s body or one near the back, by placing dots along the flank or one dot further down it’s body may trick the predator into thinking this is a bait fish trying to fool the predator but is in fact lost and away from the rest of the school. These spots are evident with bait fish like Sardines and in a shoal, they are designed to trick the predator by confusing it so it can’t single out a target. Eyes are very important!
Natures influence:
Nature has a way of dealing with injured, slow or fish that just don’t fit in. These fish should not be left to reproduce and nature takes care of this by enticing predators to pick off any fish that don’t fit in. Red may be one of those colours as in a bleeding or dying fish. If in a school of bait fish, usually the “odd one out” gets taken first. This is evident when trolling. Often we troll a spread of colours that we know have been successful and the odd ball gets hit. Or as in Daisy chains we pull. The lure lagging behind which is different in appearance get hammered. It is just nature’s way of getting rid of the sick and old. If you look at the behaviour of squid, the squids go dark in colour when about to be attacked. The closer to the predator, the darker they seem to be.
Size:
A fish will size up its prey and a decision is made based on how hungry it is. How much effort it will have to put into the attack and will the energy gained from the food be worthwhile to outlay the effort. This is difficult, because a fish who is hungry won’t want to chase something that is not beneficial. So the trick would be large baits for large fish. This only really applies to moving or casting lures. Something lying still may not require a chase and will there for be taken with ease for very little effort. A good example is when plugging. A fast retrieve may work but sometimes a pouse every now and then will entice the strike. I believe it is because the predator will see the pause as either the fish is injured or it may feel it has been unnoticed and may have a chance of an easy meal. We will find 2 scenarios though that defies this. 1 - Reaction strike. Here it is a free meal for no effort. The lure comes past the fish and the fish doesn’t need to think about it, it just eats it before it gets away. It naturally does this because it would rather not put effort into anything if it doesn’t need to. And 2 – The food source is close enough, here a big fish will eat a small bait. The only problem here is we don’t really know what triggers the attack. Throwing a large lure though will attract the attention of larger predators capable of consuming the “bait” with the smaller ones summing it up as an impossible meal. This has been evident in our trolling we have done and quite obvious. When we run smaller lures, we attract majority Bonnies, increase the size of the lure and we get fewer Bonnies but more “quality” fish. But we have had many strikes from decent fish on the smaller lures. The ratios changes. This tells me that for the big fish around the small lure is not worth the effort. However, pull it past its nose and it will eat it.
Shape:
Here we need consider what the target species is but in general it seems as though the body shape and especially the tail shape may give different vibrations or “swirls” in the water. Some fish like GT’s, Barracudas and grouper species have no problem eating other predatory fish though. But generally mimicking a bait fish should be more productive. A Tuna for example wouldn’t attach a Barracuda. On any lure I make, I’m happy getting a GT or a Tunny on the same fishing spot. I have found that Dorado are very interesting and will eat just about anything. When we gut them, we find anything from puffer fish to crabs to crustaceans and snails in their guts. Definitely not fussy eaters but would much rather eat an easy meal.
What works when:
On a fishing trip we were site fishing for Dorado and they refused a live bait. We had Mackerel, Mozzies and pinkies. We filleted small fillets about 10mm wide X 40mm long and that they took. On closer inspection we discovered the water was full of sprats and were easy pickings for them. Therefore little effort was required to fill up and they must have felt that chasing a Mackerel would not be worth the chase. I think the lesson here is to try and mimic the bait in the area.
That’s it for now.
Guys, please feel free to add or correct anything here you may have found or learnt or experienced or discovered.
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And from Critter, I hope you don't mind bud???
"Howzit Bennie
This will probably be bit of a long read, but you have asked for it ;-)
As you know I am doing a bit of reading up myself, and as you would also know, figuring out the “what triggers fish” equation is like trying to explain the matrix! I am strongly of the opinion that none of these factors can and should be viewed in isolation. I have done a lot of reading on these subjects, and the more I read, the more I realize how big our gaps is in terms of understanding fish behavior, especially their behavior around lures. What follow is some ideas and bits of info that I have gathered so far. Well parts of it any-way…. each of these “topics” can fill fascinating book chapters in themselves!
Last on my list would be smell. A great many anglers and scientists will differ from me, which is a good thing, as the main reason I am placing smell last is that it is the subject that I have read the least on. Nonetheless, I think that smells is a greatly underestimated and underutilized factor, especially in lure fishing (apart maybe form bass angling where a variety of “attractant” or “human odor disguises”, mainly garlic, are available and used). One company that have been really cashing in on fishes sense of smell is Berkley with their Gulp! range of products. There is no doubt in my mind that the Gulp!” juice” attracts fish, and makes them hold onto the bait longer! It is a known fact that most fish have well developed smell senses (olfactory senses if you want to be fancy) that far exceeds our own in many ways. Although fish do not have a protruding nose like we have (you may argue this point if you look at an old Poenskop), most of them do have a set of clearly visible nostrils (called nares in fish) often two nares on each side of the head. These open into a chamber lined with cells that is highly receptive to odor molecules. Unlike many other animals, the back of a fish’s nose does not open into the throat, and plays no role in breathing. To move water over the receptor cells, the entrance to a fish’s nose is lined by lots of highly movable hair-like structures called cilia. These cilia constantly moves water from the envornment over the receptor cells, so that the fish do not need to move to establish a constant flow of water through the nares. Fish that is highly dependent on smell usually have two nares on each side of the head through which they establish a one-way flow of water. This allows them to move more water faster over the smell receptors. Smell can not only attract fish, but can also warn them of danger and this is also where abnormal smells like petrol, sunscreen etc can play a significantly important role in your success. Many social fish will give of a “danger” pheromone that will be detected by other fish and make them head for cover. I also have a theory that something similar happens when one individual in a school finds something to eat, and it could explain the observation of a whole school of fish being “turned on” when you hook one of them. Smell definitely is important, and even if not used to attract bites, one should at least be cautious of smells that can put fish off!
Third on my list would be color. This is probably one of the most controversial, and most speculated about topic in lure angling all over the world, and is one that’s unlikely to be put to bed anytime soon! If you want to see the chameleon on a smartie box principle in humans, just study an angler in front of the lure section of any tackle shop. I would love to have one of us hooked up to a brain activity monitor when we go to shop for lures…. I am pretty sure the machine will go off the chart in terms of brain activity and calculations going on in the minds of some of us, and at the same token, the machine is likely to show absolutely no activity in some others… not because they are brain dead…..just due to sensory over-load!. Studying the literature on fish vision does not make the picture any clearer, in fact, it tend to just ad chaos to the confusion Fish eyes differ quite significantly from our own structurally, and are specifically adapted to see in water. There is a great debate about color vision in fish, but scientist have found several color sensitive pigments in the eyes of fish, which indicates that color vision do occur in some fish at least. Color is in water is affected by a great number of factors, the most important of which is light intensity, light penetration, and light filtering by the water. Some wavelengths of light (the reds) are filtered out / absorbed much faster than others (purples), and even over short distances under water “color shifts” can occur whereby a red lure at a specific depth may seem gray from 5m away, but will “shift to” red from 1m away. Thus color as we know it is not likely to be anything like color as fish know it! Fish eyes also have varying numbers of cells known as Rods and Cones which plays differing roles on terms of day and night vision, and the relationship between rods and cones often determines whether the fish is a day or night / high-light or low-light feeder. In my personal opinion, what is of more importance to us lure anglers, is two other aspects of fish eyes, and that is firstly, their sensitivity to movement, and secondly their sensitivity to contrast. Fish live in an environment where most of their potential meals are either very fast, or very slow and well camouflaged, and one of the only ways to detect these food sources is to be extremely sensitive to movement. Probably coupled to this is the sensitivity to contrast. Most sea creatures in the water are well camouflaged, either in an attempt not to become food, or not to be detected by their food. In fish the camo consists mainly of counter-shading whereby the back of the fished will be darker and the belly will be white, with a color gradient from dark to light. This is mostly to make the fish disappear when viewed from the top over a dark background or from the bottom over a light background. (This may be why you tend to not find much baitfish over light colored bottom substrate like sand, but mostly over dark bottoms of reefs/wrecks etc. It may also explain why many fish species will hug the bottom at night as they can then not be viewed from below). Thus a game fish that is acutely attuned to detecting the slightest of changes in contrast, will be more successful at hunting counter-shaded prey. An aspect of contrast that works against predators and for shoaling prey, is to use markings that is highly visible, and in high contrast with the rest of the body and the surroundings, but in large numbers. A whole shoal of baitfish with these markings then creates so much contrast, that a predator has a hard time in honing in on any specific one of them, and they have safety in numbers and safety by confusion. These marking are most often black, and occur as dots or stripes (just have a look at popular bait fish like sardines, mackerel and bonitos et al.). Stripes on fish may create the same type of confusion that a lot of zebras running together may cause to a lion. An interesting theory on spots is coupled to the believe / fact that many predators use the eye of the baitfish as a reference point on the body to aim its attack (some grab the head for an instant kill; others chomp of the tail to immobilize the bait). Now if a fish has several “eyes” along the body, it may become difficult for the predator to determine the best place to grab the bait. Now add that confusion to the movement of a thousand similarly marked fish in a school, and the poor predator will really be confused! Obviously the down side of this tactic is when one of these baitfish gets separated from the masses due to panic or illness…. these high contrast markings will ring the dinner bell for any nearby predator. This high contrast patterns are often mimicked on popular lures with great success, as are highly visible and they look like a distressed, lost baitfish. In baitfish terms, it is mostly the odd one out that get chowed first. According to the information I could gather so far, the best contrast colors is Black, white and yellow (A fact that have been proven many times by the lowly black and white/yellow black fury spinners).
Something to think about in terms of contrast – Ever seen the behavior of a sick or injured fish? Apart from often being erratic, the fish will often turn on its side, or completely on its back. Thus, the counter-shading protection is lost, and as a matter of fact the fish may now be even more visible to any predator lucky enough to pass this easy snack! This is an argument for some reverse-counter shaded lures!
Second on my list would be vibration/sound/ water movement (displacement). I group them together because sound is transmitted and received in a pressure wave form (hence “sound waves”) and then transformed into “impulses” in much the same way as water movement from living objects creates pressure waves that are detected and converted to impulses. Henceforth I will refer to all of the above as “pressure waves” Fish have a really elaborate set of hearing/sensing organs that is well adapted to collecting and processing the “waves” from objects moving in the water or making some sort of “noise”. Most fish have an inner ear (that it often connected to the swim bladder to further amplify waves) as well as a lateral line system that consists of tiny pores filled with a gel like substance and that is lined with cells that has microscopic hairs extending into the gel matrix and that acts as “receivers”. With the aid of the middle ear, fish pick up and hone in on pressure waves originating from sources further away, whilst the lateral line are used to gather information from pressure waves originating from sources closer to the fish. Research on shoaling fish has shown that these fish use mainly their lateral lines to position themselves in the school. This is how shoals of baitfish can move seemingly in unison without ramming into another. This also allows them to concentrate their vision on looking out for predators rather than checking where your mates are going. The main reason why sound and all other pressure waves is generally more important to fish than to us is that pressure waves travels about 4.5 times faster in water than in air (e.g. sound in air travels at approx 340m/s whilst in water at approx 1500m/s). The importance of pressure waves becomes even more pronounced when it is dark or deep (low light conditions); in dirty water or in any circumstance that vision is compromised. As an example... a big spoon with a wide slow wobble, coming in slooowly, bumping the bottom here and there will allow a cobbie waiting in ginger beer water enough time to detect the various pressure waves produced by the spoon, determine its distance, speed and probably size (is it worth chasng) and hone in on it for an accurate strike as it comes into range.
Movement is definitely the number one response trigger in fish! I guess fish are like Jack Russels (not the rabbit, just married type). Irrespective of color, if something moves, chances are good that you can either eat it, play with it or mate with it…. and not in any particular order! Another importance of movement is that it can give away a predator, and the faster they can spot a predator lurking, the better their chances of getting away. Mates, predators and food in the water are generally cryptically colored (outside of breading season when exuberant colors are often used to outshine competition…..seems like risking predation is a risk worth-while if you get to mate!). This may well be why a clear lure will still attract hits if the movement is right…. “It moves like food, it is colored like food and it’s getting away so I better grab it before I’m too late!”
In my opinion, movement enhances the detection of prey both in terms of vision and pressure waves. Even suspending fish must make some movements from time to time to irrigate their gills or by finning here and there to maintain position. Every time it moves, it can give away its position either by providing a change in contrast, or by creating a pressure wave detectable by a predator. Even a seemingly invisible prey species darting out quickly to grab a morsel of food, or to change position will give away its precise position for a split second making it vulnerable to predation (hence the success of suspending jerk baits???). I believe that in most cases, movement is the first trigger in a range of factors that will establish the interest of a predatory fish. The next would be of the object is moving like a bait organism (healthy but exposed, or sick/damaged), then if it creates the right vibes (pressure waves) then if it has got the right bait-like contrast and maybe color, and lastly, does it smell or smell right. This is obviously not a rule, as a cob in murky water may still detect the movement first, but as pressure waves, and will have to get much closed before contrast or color can play any role. Also keep in mind that although fishes swims in schools, they do not read the literature published about them or follow online discussions, and hence may behave completely different. If they are really hungry or on a really bad mood, and in a big group of fish feeling the same they will be less fussy about the movement, vibes and looks of the lure than when they are not pressurized to find food, or have less competition around.
I think this thread can bring out some extremely interesting discussions, so let’s keep this one running with info and observations!"
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Here is an article I wrote a while back
http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php/topic,1436.0.html (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php/topic,1436.0.html)
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Bennie, I disagree with you about fish being colour blind, I beleive that most predator fish can see colour perfectly.
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It seems that we all agree that movement is an important factor
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It seems that we all agree that movement is an important factor
Again it depends! A popper for example works very well for surface feeding predators like GT's or YF IF they are on the surface! A popper had no action what so ever! A down rigged bullet also has no real action to speak of. Nothing compared to an ausi runner. Every situation is different! So I'm going to say yes, but no! It all depends.
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Mike, I love that lure you have created, and I can see no reason for it not to work.... lots of movement plus a nice profile! Don't worry, Bennie still looks at me like he is feeling sorry for me when I arrive at his place with my pea-shooters (Trevala ML and MH + Berkley air). Don't let him fool you though... he also owns some of those..."for the kids" he says...
Bennie, no problems with you sharing that. I have read more and can tell you even the scientists are confused about the subject of color vision in fish. In a world where contrast is rather important, it may be beneficial to see in "black and white" but, it still does not explain why there are "Color sensing pigments and cells" present in many fish's eyes, and also does not explain the color explosion during and importance of color in mating. Just look at reef fish! Obviously the deeper you go, the less important color will become. Who says fish can not switch from color to monochrome vision as they need to? Color vision in high light conditions and gray-scale vision in low-light conditions? I have seen far stranger things in nature. Would be interesting to test some of these ideas, and to study these aspects in our local fish species... just a pity that there is no money for this type of research....
As for colors, one more observation I have made from underwater footage. On a number of documentaries about various forms of ocean live, I have noticed that although all-other colors have faded to gray, pink and yellow seems to still stand out quite clearly. This would explain to me why those two colors work well on vertical jigs? Not sure if the colors was normal pigments of fluorescent pigments, but, in a world of gray, anything that stands out that much needs to be investigated. Then again, that is if fish actually see in color?
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Again it depends! A popper for example works very well for surface feeding predators like GT's or YF IF they are on the surface! A popper had no action what so ever! A down rigged bullet also has no real action to speak of. Nothing compared to an ausi runner. Every situation is different! So I'm going to say yes, but no! It all depends.
I would still say that a popper has got movement, even if it is just the fact that it moves in a straight line. It also have "movement" in terms of the splashing of water and dangling of hooks? I agree, nothing like an ausy runner, but there is some movement and the generation of pressure waves (
I know... that is "sounds").
Same with a bullet.... althoug it has very little swimming action compared to a ausy runner, it is still moving from one point to another, which makes it more "detectable" than a 100% stationary object.
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It seems that we all agree that movement is an important factor
Going to go off the subject of geelbek and go to Natal snoek, couta and king fish and have to ask why do people concentrate on using colours so much and has one ever thought of going natural, as I took it on this year not to use any snoek or couta duster and will say had some great result. It is harder to make out a nice fillet and not having it to spin, but believe me after some practice it will swim straight and gives a better movement... Been getting some fresh maasbanker and using the belly shine for catching snoek, it nice and firm and sooo fresh that the snoek cant seems to resist a nice fresh bait...... I went to Sodwana during June this year and we caught so many Yellow fin tuna and then we had a bright idea and used a belly fillet from a tuna and trawled slowly over a reef and ended up getting two nice king fish.
( Hope I haven't jacked and body thread)
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Nice Kingies Eric, I love using Bonnie fillets, especially Bonnie bellt shine
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Going to go off the subject of geelbek and go to Natal snoek, couta and king fish and have to ask why do people concentrate on using colours so much and has one ever thought of going natural, as I took it on this year not to use any snoek or couta duster and will say had some great result. It is harder to make out a nice fillet and not having it to spin, but believe me after some practice it will swim straight and gives a better movement... Been getting some fresh maasbanker and using the belly shine for catching snoek, it nice and firm and sooo fresh that the snoek cant seems to resist a nice fresh bait...... I went to Sodwana during June this year and we caught so many Yellow fin tuna and then we had a bright idea and used a belly fillet from a tuna and trawled slowly over a reef and ended up getting two nice king fish.
( Hope I haven't jacked and body thread)
ERIC you are 100% correct. Give a fish what they feed on and yes I was shown proper by a Rod and Reel Club legend how it is done and exactly as you said, there is very few situations that actually warrant flash or skirts. Use the right bait rigged properly and very importantly introduce it in the right part of water column. A 10 meters difference could make or break it at times.
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Dorado has caught quite a bit of bek and kob around the Melkbos area from a kayak if i'm not mistaken. When he's online again i'll direct him to this post.
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ERIC you are 100% correct. Give a fish what they feed on and yes I was shown proper by a Rod and Reel Club legend how it is done and exactly as you said, there is very few situations that actually warrant flash or skirts. Use the right bait rigged properly and very importantly introduce it in the right part of water column. A 10 meters difference could make or break it at times.
In terms of the natural look, have you guys seen how Craig from ESA rigs his live baits? His rig is basically piano wire with a single glow bead to the first hook and swivel, then another length of piano wire from the swivel to the second hook. I believe that this probably looks more natural than many of the three hook traces with flashers etc that is on the market, and it works well for him. Similarly, Bennie likes to use a single circle hook with a heavy fluorocarbon snoot for his live baits, with no additional "attractants". These simple rigs are quite effective, probably because they look more natural.
This got me thinking a bit more. The flash and extra movement created by flashers, skirts, spinner blades etc. is probably effective in bringing in fish from further away, and works on the inquisitive nature of fish. Thus they may play an important role in attracting and exciting game-fish over a distance. However, when the fish comes closer and get a better view of this strange thing in the water, this same "attractant" may cause hesitation in a fish with keen eyesight that is not used to see this “thing” associated with its natural food source (it also makes the bait look bigger than normal….). Depending on how hungry the fish is, or on how much competition there is for that piece of food, the fish may still take its chances and strike it. However, a bigger, older, and cleverer lone fish that has got no competition for that piece of food may be put off it. This is where a more natural presentation is more likely to invoke a strike….. few fish will say no to a tasty morsel… unless it looks like trouble.
Will we then not be better off to employ a technique similar to that used by spear fisherman, where you have your attractors in the water to bring in the game fish, and then temp them with bait as naturally presented as possible on a separate line? (This is of course referring to drifting and slow trolling).
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In terms of the natural look, have you guys seen how Craig from ESA rigs his live baits? His rig is basically piano wire with a single glow bead to the first hook and swivel, then another length of piano wire from the swivel to the second hook. I believe that this probably looks more natural than many of the three hook traces with flashers etc that is on the market, and it works well for him. Similarly, Bennie likes to use a single circle hook with a heavy fluorocarbon snoot for his live baits, with no additional "attractants". These simple rigs are quite effective, probably because they look more natural.
This got me thinking a bit more. The flash and extra movement created by flashers, skirts, spinner blades etc. is probably effective in bringing in fish from further away, and works on the inquisitive nature of fish. Thus they may play an important role in attracting and exciting game-fish over a distance. However, when the fish comes closer and get a better view of this strange thing in the water, this same "attractant" may cause hesitation in a fish with keen eyesight that is not used to see this “thing” associated with its natural food source (it also makes the bait look bigger than normal….). Depending on how hungry the fish is, or on how much competition there is for that piece of food, the fish may still take its chances and strike it. However, a bigger, older, and cleverer lone fish that has got no competition for that piece of food may be put off it. This is where a more natural presentation is more likely to invoke a strike….. few fish will say no to a tasty morsel… unless it looks like trouble.
Will we then not be better off to employ a technique similar to that used by spear fisherman, where you have your attractors in the water to bring in the game fish, and then temp them with bait as naturally presented as possible on a separate line? (This is of course referring to drifting and slow trolling).
Critter exactly as you said. This is why some boats are already layed out with attractants in their keels. Remember "The Elan Explorer" from ESA. the only time I use flash would be in very low visibility and only on Shad when rigged deep. Shad tend to hide and stay inactive when they are not in a shoal. Helps to point him out to the fishies. Maks I never put anything on as fish seem to identify them miles away. Reason for this is the tiger stripes/lines on its back. Another reasons might be their way of movement is short and strong shakes. This might cause more vibration which the predators detect easier. During the Gamefish Interprovincials earlier this year we experimented with this in Umdloti area and it proved to be as sound as it gets. Only diffrence is that my rigs do not use two wires from the swivel as this is just more wire to see. Two singles (4/0) hooks but very sharp and similar to how Eric would make his rigs. Your depth however is everything when you have all the rest correct. I'm referring to only live bait now.
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I am getting to this subject late (again!), but would like to make some comments:
as I took it on this year not to use any snoek or couta duster and will say had some great result.
UA is where all our secrets are given away w;k For the last year or two I have also stopped using dusters most of the time, only using a glow bead or nothing at all.
Sorry Mike but those pea shooters are not going to work on the GT's. You are going to be replacing a lot of braid! duh
This is my own jig head I've been working on and my own paddle tail.
As you know I've just returned from Santa Maria where I caught 7 new (for me) species on dropshot. All of this on Exceller rod + Exceller 4500j with 20lb braid and lighter outfits. Fish include a +-14kg couta and 8kg or so Kaakaap. Also a few tropical yellowtails which are strong! Yes it won't work for GT's, but it will work for most other things.
The paddletail won't work for anything more than 20 meters I reckon - it sinks too slowly.
Yes = "Ultra Light Tackle Bone Fish"
The Santa Maria & Ponta Tores Flats and Mashangulo MangrovesThis area is VERGIN and full of Bone Fish
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Oh yes! Loads of bonies in this area. We target them on 10lb braid and small chokka baits.
So red for example, will appear grey from a distance and you will see the red as you come closer. The water simply filters the colours and the lure will eventually take on it's surrounding colours.
Sorry Bennie, I disagree (or misread your statement). At the top of the water column yes, from further away the lure will have less colour and get back colour as you get closer. Deeper down though, there is no red in the light that gets filtered, so no matter how close you are to the lure, it will never be red.
As for colors, one more observation I have made from underwater footage. On a number of documentaries about various forms of ocean live, I have noticed that although all-other colors have faded to gray, pink and yellow seems to still stand out quite clearly. This would explain to me why those two colors work well on vertical jigs? Not sure if the colors was normal pigments of fluorescent pigments, but, in a world of gray, anything that stands out that much needs to be investigated. Then again, that is if fish actually see in color?
I think what happens is that red is a common colour deeper down ESPECIALLY is it turns grey/non-descript. Remember that good underwater footage is taken with artificial light, which is not filtered and thus brings out the colours. That is why night diving (with a torch) is so much more brilliant than diving during the day (with filtered sunlight).
Regards,
./n