SEINE NETTERS AND CATCHERS

[jb2]

Note how small the Cob on the top is?

Hi Robin
People on this forum get upset if I ask you to talk straight so I suppose your hyperbole will win out.
Do you think the catches in the photos are representative of the treks in False Bay?
Ironically, the MLRA is being revised and the recreational sector faces is biggest challenge in decades.
Unless we get a handle on what's going on then we, as a recreational sector stand to loose out on much of our enjoyment of the sea.
The misleading information that you provide goes a long way to interfering in recreationals' ability to make an informed comment.
So for one last time. Hyperbole or reality, are the photos representative of False Bay catch composition or not.
If you don't know then say so. People get upset when I press you for an answer so I won't.
Robin, the catch composition please.
If you respond with evasion and hyperbole then you stand to do a terrible harm to the recreational sector.
The choice is yours.

[Parasite]

This proposed new bill will only serve one purpose and that is to make everyone a skelm. 

Well said Hermann.

And if this bill is passed, what will happen at Vetch's Pier? Does that area then belong to the Seine Netter at Vetch's? So does the DSBC pack up and move? 

Robin, highly unlikely, as the DBN netters are restricted as to where they can set their nets due to the shark nets spanning the entire length of the beach front. On the one side they are bordered by Vetch's Reef, and the other are demarcated bathing areas. I believe that it would have no impacted on the PWC members, or any recreational fishermen as these guys fish these areas durning the evening, however the issue here with these netters is that this little area is in abundence with juvenile fish and this is where our problems rests.

[RobinF]

Thanks Parasite. But that is just the part of it. We all know the dude that owns that operation and if DAFF start allocating exclusive areas to these guys, I would expect that he would ask for the same. He certainly has no shortage of legal assistance. It would secure his business (and get us off his back to a certain degree). That is why this bill is not a very well thought out process. And that also leads me to the issue of fishing in a recognised nursery......give the marine stocks a chance for goodness sake.

[jb2]

This proposed new bill will only serve one purpose and that is to make everyone a skelm. 

Well said Hermann.

And if this bill is passed, what will happen at Vetch's Pier? Does that area then belong to the Seine Netter at Vetch's? So does the DSBC pack up and move? 

Robin, highly unlikely, as the DBN netters are restricted as to where they can set their nets due to the shark nets spanning the entire length of the beach front. On the one side they are bordered by Vetch's Reef, and the other are demarcated bathing areas. I believe that it would have no impacted on the PWC members, or any recreational fishermen as these guys fish these areas durning the evening, however the issue here with these netters is that this little area is in abundence with juvenile fish and this is where our problems rests.

Hi Parasite
It is worth clearing up the different levels of policy and legislation.
The Small Scale Policy has already been finalised. This is the policy that creates the provision for exclusive use areas.  This policy was signed off months ago.
The draft policy on the allocation of rights has been gazetted and comments close on the 10th June.
The amendments to the Marine Living Resources Act were only gazetted last week and this is a far reaching amendment that looks at totally changing the way that fisheries are managed in South Africa.
The amended objectives are only a small part of the picture but they are the most disturbing.
Almost all mention of environmental values has been removed from the section 2 objectives and the amended objectives include weird provisions like small scale fishing in marine protected areas.
As I mentioned earlier, I can not recall a more profound threat to recreational fishers.
I hope this gives some background to the changes in the entire regulatory framework for inshore fishing and also a bit of insight into my difficulty in controlling my frustration with the "pub talk"  at a time when we as recreational fishers should be getting down to responding to the threats that face us.

[jb2]

This proposed new bill will only serve one purpose and that is to make everyone a skelm. 

Well said Hermann.

And if this bill is passed, what will happen at Vetch's Pier? Does that area then belong to the Seine Netter at Vetch's? So does the DSBC pack up and move? 

Hi SAfish and Robin
The policy allowing for the exclusive use areas has been signed off. So it is not accurate to look at what would happen "if the bill is passed". The policy has been finalised.
What we are looking at now is a complete revision of the basic fishing law to make small scale fishing take precedence over everything else.
This means that it will be more important than any of the environmental protection stuff that used to be in the existing act.

[Marthin]

Some algebra and a question......

TAC is worked out with some formula i suppose and also taken into account would be deaths of released fish undersize or not......

So let's say for silver kob:

Inshore Hake Trawl size catch = X
Inshore Hake undersize catch(deaths) = A

Treknetting size catch = Y
Treknetting undersize catch = B

Recreational size catch = Z
Recreational undersize catch = C

Total Allowable Catch = (X + A) + (Y+B) + (Z+C)
Now if we stand all stand on our wooden boxes and scream that Y+B(Treknetters) takes too much out of the TAC pool, with the new possibilities the MLRA changes bring about, DAFF can simply decide to take away from Z+C(Recreational Part), and give it to Y+B(Treknetters).

They have done so with the Kreef TAC by making the season much shorter for recreationals, and could do so easily with silver kob by making minimum size bigger only for recreationals, changing bag limit to 1 per day or even making it a no catch species.

I've hear many complaints about the steenbras caught in the nets as well.  So steenbras die in nets or die after being caught by recreationals(Some).  So they make steenbras a no catch and then the ones that die in the net doesnt matter.

Just saying the above is a very real possibility, and in the end it is simple maths, and someone that has to sit and decide who is more important, recreationals or small scale fishers, and if you look at the kreef history, and this new MLRA stuff, the writing is on the wall.

[jb2]

Thanks Parasite. But that is just the part of it. We all know the dude that owns that operation and if DAFF start allocating exclusive areas to these guys, I would expect that he would ask for the same. He certainly has no shortage of legal assistance. It would secure his business (and get us off his back to a certain degree). That is why this bill is not a very well thought out process. And that also leads me to the issue of fishing in a recognised nursery......give the marine stocks a chance for goodness sake.

Hi Robin
The bill looks at small scale fishers fishing in marine protected areas.
It is important to clarify that the small scale policy has been finalised ages ago.
The small scale policy doesn't look at allocating exclusive use areas. It is the small scale fishers who approach DAFF to have an area declared.
This is an important distinction.
 

[RobinF]

If DAFF cannot sufficiently police the Seine Netting operations country wide, they will NEVER be able to police the recreationals.

Here's my maths:

Treknetters cast nets 3 times in a week, and two nets are 65% full. That is much more fish than any number of recreationals would have caught in that same period and their destruction of the juveniles is MUCH greater than recreationals. I would bet on an undersized recreational caught fish being successfully released any day ahead of some Seine Netter squeezing the life out of the smaller fish in the net.

be honest, how many recreational fishermen fish 7 days a week, or even 3 days a week, every week. Almost none. The writting is indeed on the wall as to who does more destruction to our resources.

How often do you read an article like this about recreationals? Ahhhh...never? (So before I get ignorantly accused of misleading anyone, please note that I did not write this article in the paper, nor did I 'manufacture' it...you may be told otherwise.. My name is not Michelle Saffer. Again, you may be told otherwise  )

 

[rooiwil]

Note how small the Cob on the top is?

Hi Robin
People on this forum get upset if I ask you to talk straight so I suppose your hyperbole will win out.
Do you think the catches in the photos are representative of the treks in False Bay?
Ironically, the MLRA is being revised and the recreational sector faces is biggest challenge in decades.
Unless we get a handle on what's going on then we, as a recreational sector stand to loose out on much of our enjoyment of the sea.
The misleading information that you provide goes a long way to interfering in recreationals' ability to make an informed comment.
So for one last time. Hyperbole or reality, are the photos representative of False Bay catch composition or not.
If you don't know then say so. People get upset when I press you for an answer so I won't.
Robin, the catch composition please.
If you respond with evasion and hyperbole then you stand to do a terrible harm to the recreational sector.
The choice is yours.

......DAM.....again......dont you ever stop??????

[jb2]

If DAFF cannot sufficiently police the Seine Netting operations country wide, they will NEVER be able to police the recreationals.

Here's my maths:

Treknetters cast nets 3 times in a week, and two nets are 65% full. That is much more fish than any number of recreationals would have caught in that same period and their destruction of the juveniles is MUCH greater than recreationals. I would bet on an undersized recreational caught fish being successfully released any day ahead of some Seine Netter squeezing the life out of the smaller fish in the net.

be honest, how many recreational fishermen fish 7 days a week, or even 3 days a week, every week. Almost none. The writting is indeed on the wall as to who does more destruction to our resources.

How often do you read an article like this about recreationals? Ahhhh...never? (So before I get ignorantly accused of misleading anyone, please note that I did not write this article in the paper, nor did I 'manufacture' it...you may be told otherwise.. My name is not Michelle Saffer. Again, you may be told otherwise  )

Hi Robin
Your assumption about the catch composition is wrong.
It would be more useful to work on a basis of mostly harders.
Using a newspaper article from 2010 doesn't help.
Remember in that year the Naartjie and Chris/Val's crew voluntarily stayed out of the water until the small kob anomaly had passed.

[jb2]

Note how small the Cob on the top is?

Hi Robin
People on this forum get upset if I ask you to talk straight so I suppose your hyperbole will win out.
Do you think the catches in the photos are representative of the treks in False Bay?
Ironically, the MLRA is being revised and the recreational sector faces is biggest challenge in decades.
Unless we get a handle on what's going on then we, as a recreational sector stand to loose out on much of our enjoyment of the sea.
The misleading information that you provide goes a long way to interfering in recreationals' ability to make an informed comment.
So for one last time. Hyperbole or reality, are the photos representative of False Bay catch composition or not.
If you don't know then say so. People get upset when I press you for an answer so I won't.
Robin, the catch composition please.
If you respond with evasion and hyperbole then you stand to do a terrible harm to the recreational sector.
The choice is yours.

......DAM.....again......dont you ever stop??????

Hi Rooiwil
What am I doing that is bothering you?

[travelmember]

Treknetters cast nets 3 times in a week, and two nets are 65% full. That is much more fish than any number of recreationals would have caught in that same period and their destruction of the juveniles is MUCH greater than recreationals. I would bet on an undersized recreational caught fish being successfully released any day ahead of some Seine Netter squeezing the life out of the smaller fish in the net.

Robin, how many trek licences are there nationally. And how many recreationals. Your statement above is factually incorrect. Now before attacking me, consider the numbers put forward by the small scale sector at the recent public hearings.
675,000 licensed fishermen. 300,000 unlicensed (based on DAFF survey). Total 975,000. Average 2 sessions per month. CPUE 1.7
60% Released as undersize, with a 30% mortality rate (think of kids fishing off a harbour wall). That is 3.3 million fish per month caught. 60% are released = 1.99M. 30% die = 600,000 undersized / released fish killed by recreationals every month. That is over and above the ones they are licensed to harvest. There were no recreational representatives present with a scientific study to repudiate these numbers.


I implore you to please use your passion in a way that will help. Get involved in the draft now.


@rooiwil, I think what jb2 is trying to say is don't judge a sector by one haul. In much the same way that we shouldn't categorise the recreationals based on the actions of one individual on one day. Just imagine the outcry here if all of us were lumped together with the GW catcher of the Eastern Cape - or if WK and Robin who release everything are lumped with me 

[RobinF]

Just so everyone knows: The article is proof that this kind of criminal activity exists and there is a case right now on the court role involving the netter Naartjie and 1000 undersized cob in his freezer. The photo's were from the Aarends Seine netters. Both Seine Netters from the Strandfontein Area in False Bay, proof that both are not as fuzzy and cuddly as one would like everyone to believe. 

[RobinF]

or if WK and Robin who release everything are lumped with me 

Be careful what you wish for  . (Just kidding, BTW - I don't attack people...well, not anymore )

[Marthin]

I'll be done with it... the information is there... look at it and decide for yourself.... the 65% net happens once maybe twice a year at that rate, the last time it happend more than 3 times the treknetters volunteered to stay out the water.

Rooiwil dit is eenvoudig.  As mense net een kant van die saak wil aanhou raaksien gaan hulle eenvoudig hulle gat sien wanneer hulle hul saak wil maak teen DAFF.

Ek is n recreational en ek kan sien Robin is onredelik, DAFF is aan die small scale fishers se kant (waarvan treknetters 1 is), so hulle gaan nog meer so voel.

I said it before and i'll say it again....

the end of all of this is there will be more treknetters before the end of 2014.
the end of all this will be recreationals losing out (by how much will depend onhow hard arsed we are trying to be)
Within the next year, small scale fishers will have first pick regarding the fish stocks, then commercial, and then if there is anything left and we ask nicely recreationals will get a piece of the action.
in this country there will always be a political motivation where fishing rights are concerned as well, especially as long as the DA is in charge of the western cape.

Robin and for the last time... the undersize fish in the picture, "IF" handed over to an MCM official, is accepted by DAFF as "casualties of war" so to speak, totally accepted by them as part of the operation.  They are so happy with it in fact they are going to give more people licence to do it!!!!!

The other side of the coin is a while ago a whole bakkie load like that was handed over, and when the scientists didnt want it, it was dumped and buried!!!!!!!!!  With people dying of hunger not 1km behind where the trek took place in Vrygrond.  I know they are dying of hunger there, because i went there and brought children food as part of another forum at the time with Reefman's blessing at that time!!!

So how the hell do you hand over a bakkie load of fish to get dumped and buried, and then watch people die of hunger where you live the same evening?  You wouldnt get me handing over a dead sandcrab again!

[Marthin]

Travelmember those are some excellent figures you put forward but no doubt they will be ignored....

[jb2]

Just so everyone knows: The article is proof that this kind of criminal activity exists and there is a case right now on the court role involving the netter Naartjie and 1000 undersized cob in his freezer. The photo's were from the Aarends Seine netters. Both Seine Netters from the Strandfontein Area in False Bay, proof that both are not as fuzzy and cuddly as one would like everyone to believe. 

Hi Robin
Please read what Travelmember is trying to get across.
You have worked on a survey of one.
It is not a question of who is "fuzzy" or not. We need to separate out "pub talk" from fact. 
The analogy of the guy bust while white shark fishing at Mossel Bay is a useful one.
So if I use that example of white shark mortality and I apply your reasoning then the recreational sector lands a few white sharks a week.
But they don't.
Yes, I understand that you have emotive photos of dead fish but you are misleading people. If you would like them to believe that the photos show the usual state of affairs on the beach then you are not really contributing to dealing with the status of recreational fishers and their position in a new small scale focussed dispensation.
 

[RobinF]

Those photos of the Aarendse Trek show what was seen on those occasions. I did not make them up. The oldest trick is the 'but there are much worse issues than Seine Netters'. White sharks? Now what, I must drop the topic and quickly put my energies into the Syrian crisis, or Iran issues? The photo's are what they are, photographic evidence.

Call me what you want. Onredelik, misleading, or whatever, I've been called much worse. All opinions and speculation.

My cause is the preservation of our marine resources

And for the record, just because DAFF say it's OK does not make it OK.

I've always been consistent in my view on this issue, I also choose not to single anyone out by name, I am who I am and I am not going to change my stand where our marine resources are under threat. If that makes me 'onredelik (Unreasonable)' or misleading in your opinion, then have your opinion, you are entitled to it, as am I.

[RobinF]

Travelmember those are some excellent figures you put forward but no doubt they will be ignored....

Anyone got a wooden spoon...

[RobinF]

Some of the very best recreational fishermen (recognised leading SA fishermen) and the ORI (Oceanographic Research Institute), are opposed to Seine Netting, I think that says something for credibility.