Fuji KR Concept

[fishatic]

Is anyone doing any experimenting or considering Fuji's KR Concept for LBG or estuary rods?

[pieta]

It looks like the single foot version of the low riders that is used on the most fresh water rods on the market. Should be working fine and should be very light in weight. Just remember to fit the first guide the wrong way around to get less friction and more casting distance. Where did you find them? Would like to get a set or four for my spinning bass rod.

[fishatic]

Hi Pieta, 1st guide definitely NOT to be placed backwards....


Trying to garner some interest and discussion from the LBG Estuary, Bass and Tiger boys...


I have been experimenting and the results have been very good!!


Have a look at the video - its a bit of a long watch but well worth it!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ANbtcbNvYU&list=UUdGlckqRQW1TlZ7UwOwnp6g

[pieta]

I see what you mean. The guid ring is standing at an angle where the low rider's guide ring is at a 90 degree angle. On the lowrider it makes a huge diffrence. The is a knew range of Berkley rods out with the first guide fitted as the rest and all the guys owning these rods are complaining about distance lost. They all change them around to solve the problem. What do these guide cost and where can you get them.

[fishatic]

I get from CDS Angling in Pretoria/Centurion.
They are not cheap, but worth the investement.

If you need some advice re spacing and set up I would be happy to help; the layouts are not the simplest but once worked out properly are amazing.
You say bass rods?
Length?
Casting weight?
What SPECIFIC reel do you use (trust me it makes a difference; you can set up a rod with a generic layout but a reel-specicfic is best)
Braid or mono/fluorocarbon?
Dia?
What sort of improvement are you after?

[pieta]

I build all my rods according to there curve. Have learned thrue the years that it is the best way of doing it. All the rods I build are build on Purglas blanks. I only do rebuilts on other blanks. I also do business with Craig. In the past I use to get my guides from Kings but it turned into a nightmare.  Thenthey send the wrong stuff, then they ddon't have stock and they they take three weeks to answer you mail or to get your order out. This is the first time I see these guides and will definitely speak to Craig for a set or two.

[Lenny]

Let me throw a spanner in the works , Those guides are for super long casting , and overpriced . Its a surf fishing guide for super long casts and pit reels the concept are built aruind fishing with braid , so I am not sure how effective it will be with mono , but fishing such ' high end' gear and trying to get extra distance using mono is not the way to go .


If its maybe for a jigging stick or a Marlin rod , get the best you can in components , guides , reel seats ext . 


And well , most of the rivers in South africa , you will never need a rod longer than 8 foot , in a river , you basically never have to cast more than 80 m  if that ...


It makes very lil sense to me to spend more money on guides , than one really need too . Even more so when fishing from a small boat on a river , you just don't need guides that with some clever diagrams and arguments leads anglers to have a better chance of success , casting further and justifying high price ,its utter BS .
 Fishing those guides on small rods 7 to 8 maybe 9 foot [ I do most of my fishing with them ] you can only get so much out of the Rod , in terms of loading it up when casting , then guides might get you an extra 10 maybe 15 meters , to me in a river that makes no difference in catch ratio .


Think some of the Amia rods have them on .


Lekker fishing

[fishatic]

Surf rod guide? Only for casting less than 4oz (at a push) So good for lure fishing.
There are better solutions for the heavier stuff.


Guides were designed originally for 6'-7'6 bass/freshwater sticks but range has been expanded and used very successfully in the States and Japan by lure fishermen (plugs and spoons)
The benefits are not only distance; the sensitivity increase is remarkable, more contact points along the blank translates into being able to feel more - useful for leadheads or soft plastics.


Spending more money on guides (I don't work for anyone in the industry so have no financial benefit in saying this) is actually a cost saver...
Line (especially braid) is expensive, barring damage by rocks, I would hate my braid to fail because of poor guides...


For the LBG scene an extra 10 or even 25m can mean the difference between casting practice and putting the lure in front of fish....


If you fish estuaries from the bank as I do, extra distance means more time for the lure in (hopefully) productive water or being able to reach a drop off patrolled by leeries.


Amia's use Microwave guides, not these.

[fishatic]

As an aside; the guides were developed and tested with fluorocarbon lines, the stiffest and nastiest stuff to control. Braid is relatively easy to tame. If it works with fluoro it works with braid.


Re did my own 8' estuary / soft plastic stick with these and was very happy. As bought the rod-tip was doing a dance after every cast; smaller lighter guides solved the problem.

[pieta]

The only reson I am interested in these guides is for the light weight factor. I have to agree that you need all the distance you can get when you are fishing from the shore. In many situations the only thing that stands between you and a hookup is distance.  If you don't reach the bank you can not fish the drop.

If I look back over the years when it comes to rods, in the old days everyone was using the longest rod on the market to get the most distance. Times have changed and we are fishing with shorter rod over bigger distances. Fishing with a shorter rod means your rod is lighter in weight and you can fish for longer periods. There are many pro's and con's to the topic.

[Dewald Posthumus]

I am also in the process of converting my Purglas rods (standard multiplier versions) into spinning rods (for the kids). In all my research these two guides types come out tops every time: LCAG and KWAG (with MNAT tips) - all FUJI.
I think the biggest change I have seen in my readings were the increase in distance for casting lighter weights - and a big one at that. Also, because of the length of the foot of the guides on the rods, their hook setting and pulling ability greatly increases with these guides. At around R600 per set for these guides, they are not cheap, however, will last you around 10 years (so I'm told).
 

[E.T.]

Let me throw a spanner in the works , Those guides are for super long casting , and overpriced . Its a surf fishing guide for super long casts and pit reels the concept are built aruind fishing with braid , so I am not sure how effective it will be with mono , but fishing such ' high end' gear and trying to get extra distance using mono is not the way to go .


If its maybe for a jigging stick or a Marlin rod , get the best you can in components , guides , reel seats ext . 


And well , most of the rivers in South africa , you will never need a rod longer than 8 foot , in a river , you basically never have to cast more than 80 m  if that ...


It makes very lil sense to me to spend more money on guides , than one really need too . Even more so when fishing from a small boat on a river , you just don't need guides that with some clever diagrams and arguments leads anglers to have a better chance of success , casting further and justifying high price ,its utter BS .
 Fishing those guides on small rods 7 to 8 maybe 9 foot [ I do most of my fishing with them ] you can only get so much out of the Rod , in terms of loading it up when casting , then guides might get you an extra 10 maybe 15 meters , to me in a river that makes no difference in catch ratio .


Think some of the Amia rods have them on .


Lekker fishing

Lenny you are onto something. People are bowled over by sales hype. Salesmen catches more customers than fish. They Improved Fuji's SiC ring material with the all new thinner and better ring material named Torzite....
http://www.mudhole.com/Rod-Building/Fuji-Torzite-Guides-Tops 


Why so expensive if they use so little of it on the guide? What happened to Fuji's Gold Cermet Guides with the Titanium Frame? Gone with the wind, because the sales pitch did not convince the industry to step away from SiC. Will I even consider buying Torzite instead of SiC? Nope. I will stick with what I know works.


Single Foot vs Double Foot??? How much weight is really shaved off on using single foot as opposed to double foot on a Surf Rod?  How much strength or durability are thrown in the water by going for a single foot high riding guide? What happens if you cast a big plug and the line wraps around one of the guides? So if weight is an issue one has to ask, won't a low riding single foot be better? Lot less material used? For a heavy duty work horse or a use and abuse type rod, I would rather consider an all purpose spinning or casting double foot guide with SiC insert or even Alconite as a cheaper alternative.


The rod itself will also determine your casting distance. Is it a fast action? medium Action? Slow Action?  Is it UL or Med or Heavy Power rating? All these are factors that attribute to a rod and it's casting capabilities. Also no use in trying to jack up a rod and think that the guides are going to do all the work and take that rod up from a 2oz to a 4oz rating and think that you are going to get the distance.


I have seen with my own two eyes what proper guides in a low rider setup can do on a rod that can handle the punch. What was it Tony? 20 plus meters extra? On your first cast?

[Lenny]

I know ET , well i am no expert , but many a fisherman has succumb to sales pitches , even me .
I do feel for the guys that can only visit the coast x amount of times a year , hence the debates can sometimes get heated .But its all in good spirit . then we ca take it from the other side , and say , well i only fish the coast x amount of times a year , does it justify going all out on guides for a rod that see the salt maybe trice a year . the flip side is , like myself fish basically everyday , yes maybe , but fishing a lot and at night , you do knock a guide and snap a rod , it happens but its no real reflection of the quality of guide , platinum coated guides will still break , sometimes even in the 'right hands' 


One always want to put oneself in the best possible situation one can when fishing , in this case ,distance of your cast .


However , should you blame poor guides on an unsuccessfull mission  is a bit far fetched , and if you need that extra distance go with a longer rod in this case 9  of 10 foot . Theres loads of them on the market and you should get one that fits your fancy ...
You seem to have all the info right at hand , and seem to have you mind are up , lets us know whats the out come ...

[E.T.]

@Lenny

[pieta]

When the lowriders first came to the party I was one of the clever guys that said "more distance" is a sales trap. At that stage I was busy building a knew set of 13" for myself to use for papgooi. I were looking to build the ultimzte distance caster for my self. I got a set of lowriders and the normal old school nlg fuji guides. Fitted the reel seat and did the buts. I marked the guide placement on the blank and taped the guides to the blank with isolation tape. First we casted with the nlg guides. We were three guys and each and everyone of us took ten cast's to get an average.  We stripped thnlg's of Nd fitted the lowriders on the same placement as the nlg guides. We then went for a second round of ten casts each and from the first cast we all manege 15m plus on our casts. Guides do make a diffrence but the biggest influence on casting distance comes from the blank you use. The second biggest influence come from your bud length. Every angler has a different bud length that will work better for him. The third factor according to me will be guides and the fourth would be line.

To be honest with you guys, if that guides cost R600 a set I will rather stick to my lowriders.

[E.T.]

Pieta I share the exact same view.
Yes the Fuji K Series with the slanted guide frame and SiC rings does minimize line coil and line wrapping over guides to increase your casting distance when fishing it on a spinning rod with a grinder.

But I am convinced that low rider surf casting guides with SiC rings would cast further than the K Series with SiC rings on the same rod/blank. The same would apply to Alconite rings. Alconite is a cheaper alternative to SiC (Silicone Carbide), but it is certainly not a waste of money. I have used Alconite with great results on anything from Stripping guides on a Smallstream Fly Rod to a Surf Spinning rod. Good value for money and the same applies to low riders, they also come in the Alconite option.

[pieta]

The big problem these days is the fact that there is so many products to choose from. If you walk in to a tackle you can be guaranteed thet the sales man is going to try and sell you the product with the highest markup or his favourite.  We don't all have the time to try and test some of the products befor we buy. The guy in the shop is their to make money. Not all of them but most. You can ask any rodbuilder you know his job how many hours goes in to testing and playing around with blanks and guides to get the perfect rod and then comes fuji and these guys and make things more complicated with knew products every now and then.

[fishatic]

ET,
KR Concept guides are not "normal" K Series guides. (good guides they are)
Its in the height of the top of the guide relative to the ring size.
KR Concept Guides (KL-H is the Fuji specific nomenclature) are not suitable for all rods.
I would not dream of using them on a 12 or 13 foot rod for throwing 6-7 ounces - Low riders would be a much better solution.
With regards to the single foot low riders mentioned, the KT guides that are used as runners are exactly that, low to the blank with a single foot.
The KL-H guides are used for the reduction train (3-4 guides, 3 being best option) being higher off the blank means that they can be placed closer to the reel without running the risk of over-choking the line. Closer to the reel CAN (not will) result in more of the lower part of the blank being used for casting power and for fighting fish)
As an example the LC20 is 45mm high and whilst if used with a smaller reel, say Shimano 4000 size it can easily be brought as close as 600mm from the reel stem, it is heavier and stiffer than a single food guide like the KL16H that has the same height (roughly) of 43.3mm. I like the Kl20H as a first/stripping guide, stepped down to KL10H then to KL7M.


If have in my own collection a 9' stick that uses a LC/Low Rider reduction train (LC20/LC16/LC12) that then steps down to KT8 runners. It gets used with a Sustain 4000 and was built to see how close I could get Low Riders to the spool before overchoking became a problem. The smaller and lower spool meant that the 630mm from the stem was not a problem>
The LC reduction train was also used to stiffen up the mid-section of the blank, it increased the ability of the blank from a max of 1.5oz to 2.5oz. Tip of the blank was not able to handle the extra weight of LC8's as running guides, so I used 5 KL8's
It works very well.


KT guides are vastly superior to the L series single foot guides when it comes to running guides. They are stronger and less prone to torque.


Using MORE running guides (of what ever type) keeps the line tightly under control and prevents the nasty tip wraps
There is no loss in distance - any additional friction is negligible in comparison the the friction of the line slapping and dragging against the blank, I have found more running guides increase distance, not reduce it, with the added benefit of more of the blank being used (after a fish is hopefully hooked....) to fight the fish.


Its not all marketing hype.
I was lucky enough to be able to build a few rods as testers and so if the performance was not up to expectations I could strip and say "no thanks, they do not work for me". The guides (both LC and KL-H have remained firmly attached to my rods.

[fishatic]

Example of guide heights:
KL25: 44mm (normal K series single foot)
KL25H: 55.9mm (KR series single foot)
KL20: 33.5mm (normal K series single foot)
KL20H: 50.3mm (KR series single foot)
KW20: 28.6mm (normal K series double foot)
LC20:45.5mm (low rider)


The extra height of the "KL-H" guides means line coils are reduced quickly due to smaller ring, but because of height prevent line slap against the blank. Slap is a major contributor to loss of distance due to friction.
Of the KL-H guides, the 20H has the "best" relationship between height and ring diameter - relativly small ring with sufficient height to prevent slap, it copes well with braid up to 40lb (or lighter braid with a heavier leader)  Sort of a single foot LC guide in terms of performance but without the weight..... AND you can bring it closer to the reel for more fighting power.....


Still love Low Riders (LC's) in the right application though.


My own 11' 1-4oz spinning stick is a low rider rod. Tip can cope with 4x LC8 running guides so no need for the single foot KT guides.
A rod with a softer/bouncier tip would benefit from using KT running guides with KL-H reduction guides, unlikely it will be used to throw more than 2.5 - 3 oz.


I have a small database of measured performance of standard K Series layouts vs KR Concept layouts and there is a marked difference in performance, both in terms of casting distance as well as rod power. The tests were not downloaded or copied from someone else; I did side-by-side tests of rods: same line, same reel, same weight, same angler. All done on a field so no "I think I casted 100m nonsense, all casts were measured. Not just one cast but multiples of each set up until a good average was established.