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General Angling Topics => Saltwater Lure Angling => Topic started by: REEFMAN on January 23, 2011, 09:34:54 pm

Title: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on January 23, 2011, 09:34:54 pm
LINE TWIST and WIND KNOTS

Using Spinning Reels with Braid.
Spinning reel = Fixed Spool reel = coffee grinder

Wind knots are bit of a misnomer, as they are only sometimes caused by the wind - which blows slack line over and across the top of the rod during a cast, so that it catches a rod guide with a loop. This stops line dead in it's tracks.
But, theoretically, they are associated primarily with how the line is wound onto the spool... any loose line loops or line laid out of sequence will cause a wind knot in the cast.

The Braid Clump Frustration
Many an angling session has been ruined when an angler becomes plagued with 'Wind knots'. The clump of braid that becomes jammed around one of the rod guides during a cast is the source of much frustration. Once the angler has spent considerable time unpicking the knotted tangle, tempers quickly flare when, on the very next cast, the same thing happens.  Unfortunately the problem is not going to just disappear. The root cause needs to be found and treated.

Line twist is a major cause of knots or line tangles when using a Spinning reel loaded with braid. Due to the fact that braid has little or no memory, whatever you do to the line, it will tend to stay that way. Unlike nylon - where if you twist nylon, it's memory will cause it to spring back to it's original shape. Not so with braid... twist it, and it will stay twisted, until you physically untwist it.

Casting a Spinning reel (or Coffee Grinder) is easy the first few throws! No overwinds to contend with like a multiplier reel! But continue casting with a Spinning reel and winding the line on for an hour or so, and pretty soon the braid is going to jump off the spool like it has a mind of it's own, and during a cast, either:

    * knot itself round a rod guide,
    * knot itself round a rod guide, snap off in mid air along with your expensive lure, or
    * knot itself round a rod guide, snap off in mid air along with your expensive lure, and take a guide clean off your rod with it!

So what is line twist?

To really understand what Line Twist is, we need to have a better understanding of how a Spinning reel works.

(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/reel%20parts.jpg)

How spinning reels work.

The spool of a Spinning reel is fixed - it does not move. The Rotor of the reel attaches to the Bail mechanism, which catches the line through the line roller and lays it down onto the fixed spool by rotating around the spool, at the same time moving up and down in order to spread the line evenly.

Line twist is caused by the very nature of Spinning reels.

The line coming straight down the rod onto the reel, is then bent at 90 degrees, and laid down in a rotating pattern onto the spool. This causes an unavoidable twist tension on the line. Some of the better, more expensive reels like the Shimano Stella range and the Daiwa Saltiga's, have built in systems to try minimize this line twist... "Twistbuster" from Daiwa and "Aero wrap" from Shimano are marvellous inventions that help reduce Line twist. However, it is mechanically impossible to rotate line through 90 deg, without twisting it to some degree. So every Spinning reel's rotational bail arm mechanism causes a certain amount of line twist - it is impossible to stop it completely.

(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/line%20twist%201.jpg)

So most reels will automatically cause a little Line twist. But over time, this line twist gets worse on every retrieve until the dreaded Wind knot occurs. It is important to recognize the causes of this excessive line twist before it causes a catastrophe!

Visual inspection of a spool from time to time will tell a story...

Twisted line, loose wraps and uneven laying of the line are sure signs of a disaster waiting to happen!


(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/visual.jpg)
 

By pulling some line off the spool and allowing it to lie slack, will also give important pointers of how twisted the line already is...

(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/line%20twist%202.jpg)



What causes Line twist?

 

    * The first cause is incorrectly spooled line.

By spooling a reel using the manufacturers recommended methods, one can decrease the amount of Line twist associated with winding line onto the spool.
Most manufacturers recommend that the new spool of line is attached to the reel and then the line is simply reeled on while the spool of line rotates. But by using this method, line twist still occurs by approximately 1 twist of line per turn of the handle. This is negligible to start with, but this is where the rot starts, and these twists will quickly build up and increase with time.

The best way to spool new braid onto a Spinning reel to minimize any Line twist is to do the following:
       
          o Thread the new braid through the tip eye and down towards the reel.
          o Attach the line to the reel with a Fig 8 knot and tape the first loop   of braid down onto the spool with sellotape to stop it from ever   slipping. (I find it completely unnecessary to use a length of mono under   the braid topshot - the sellotape does the trick and cuts out 2 more   unnecessary joins... mono to braid.)
          o Lay the new line spool down on the ground flat and horizontal with the label up.
          o Fix it to the ground with a large nail and a washer, so that it can't rotate.
          o Keeping tension on the line with left thumb and forefinger (use a glove if necessary), wind the new line onto the reel, keeping the tension reasonably tight.

(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/LINE%20TWIST.jpg)       

      What this now accomplishes:

Most reels - the bail arm turns clockwise (looking from the front of the reel). Therefore the line is laid down in a clockwise pattern. To stop the line twisting anywhere, it must come off the new line spool in exactly the same pattern - and that is anti-clockwise if you're looking at the label of the new line spool. (or clockwise if you're looking at it in the same plane as if you were looking at the reel).

The line is now laid onto the reel in exactly the same way that it comes off the new line spool, passively - with minimum rotation and line twist.

 

Other causes of Line twist and Wind knots

The next most common cause of Wind knots is an overfilled reel. The spool of a spinning reel has a lip on the front end, over which the line must run smoothly. Too much line on the spool causes loose loops of line to slip off the spool - these catch the line that is coming off the spool from the cast, and causes tangles.
The spool should be filled to 2-3mm BELOW the lip.

(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/lip%20fill.jpg)




Equipment Quality

The quality of the reel plays a large part in preventing these tangles in braid.
Newer, better quality reels have a few features that are designed to minimize the problem.
 

    * The spool is slightly tapered towards the front, causing a cone angle that allows line to flow freely off the spool when casting.
    * Many of the better reels now come with additional washers than can be added underneath the spool, to the spool drive shaft - these can vary the angle of laying down line on the spool. A cone taper is optimal.

(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/Cone%20angle.jpg)


 

    * A long distance spool with a Tapered cone, showing correct line lay and the criss cross wrap of the Shimano Aero Wrap system.

(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/S6000T_linewrap.jpg)

 

    * The lip of the spool also has a taper on it, so that the line can run smoothly off the spool without being hindered by the lip.

 
(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/lip%20taper.jpg)

 

    * Most of the good reels have the Auto-bail reset function removed from it.

The auto bail reset function is the mechanism that causes the reel's bail arm to engage or click back over once the reel handle is turned.
What happens with this mechanism, is that once a cast is made, there is a certain amount of slack line that develops once the lure hits the water. If the handle is now turned, the bail arm snaps over closed, and the loose loop of line is now wound onto the reel diagonally across the spool.
On the next cast, this loose loop of line causes a snag and a tangle will result.

It is advisable to have this function removed from your reel to stop this from happening.
Get into the habit of manually clicking over the bail arm as your lure hits the water. This ensures that the line is always kept under tension and that no loose loops are made on the reel - these loose loops are a disaster waiting to happen!.
 
(http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/LINE%20TWIST/loose%20loops.jpg)



In some of the cheaper reels, the force of the cast will cause the reel handle to move slightly forward, causing the bail arm to snap closed in mid-cast... when this happens you can say good bye to your lure, your leader and a portion of your expensive braid! This is called a snap off.

 

Slack line is a major cause of wind knots
 
 
Slack line occurs very often when an erratic retrieval motion is used, as in popping or in dropshotting, when a flick retrieve is used. Keep a steady eye on the line being laid onto the spool when fishing. Any diagonal pieces of line being laid down are a recipe for disaster.
The line coming off underneath this diagonal loop will cause it to be pulled off the reel out of sequence, and a tangle will result.
 
 
Thickness of braid on the Line roller
 
Some braids are thin enough to snag in the grooves of the line roller. This happens in cheaper reels without a Roller bearing, and most often when popping, when slack line is caused just after the pop.
This slack line can get snagged. If this happens, the cone angle of the line being laid down on the reel will be altered.
The line will most often not be laid all the way to the top (under the lip) and will overlay too much on the bottom of the spool, leaving a bulge of line at the bottom of the spool - this overlaying will result in line slipping off the curve created and a tangle will result on the next cast.
 
After every cast and retrieve, visually inspect the spool for line piling up in the wrong place, for diagonal loops and that the line is laying properly in the trough of the Line roller.

 
Swivels
 
Some anglers swear by swivels, maintaining that it helps prevent line twist -  the swivel twists rather than the line.
This is all good and well, however one needs to be very careful with the quality of the swivel and the size.
The lighter line braids will not put enough torque onto an oversized swivel and therefore it will not turn.
Rule of thumb is that the swivel wire should be a similar thickness to your braid diameter... ie: small!
Because the swivels that will work properly with light braid are therefore very small, they need to be high quality to prevent breakage under strain.
 
Barrel swivels in this instance are not good enough. One needs to invest in good quality power swivels.
 
 
Fish taking line on drag
 
The quickest way to mess your entire spool up with Line twist is to turn the handle while the reel is going backwards in reverse. ie: if a fish is taking line, DO NOT reel while the spool is moving. Each wind of the handle will put on average 5 twists into the line!
 

Lures
 
Not all lures swim the way they are supposed to. Some, like spoons, will turn round and round in the water causing Line twist. This is where a decent swivel will help to minimize the problem.
 
I am told that trolling a lure at the incorrect speed will cause the same problem in an offshore setting.
It is always a good idea to inspect the action of a lure at different speeds of retrieve to see how the speed affects the action.
 

Removing line twist
 
On a boat, this is easy... just lay the line out behind the boat (without any lure or weight attached) and let it unwrap itself as the boat moves forward.
 
In a Rock and Surf situation, it becomes more difficult.
You need to lay the line out into water, while walking along the beach, dragging it along as if it were being trolled. Keep laying the line out until the line twist is removed.
 
Make sure that on retrieval, that the line line is reeled back under a little tension between your thumb and forefinger.
 
 
Another method that is fairly successful -
Tie a swivel to a tree and then attach the line, walk backwards letting line off the reel.
Every 5 metres or so, take hold of the line and let it form a loop below the reel with no tension. If there is twist keep walking back (with a bit of tension on the line, so that the swivel will unspin the line twist) until the line does not form a twist when tested.
 
Then using a cloth, pinch the line between your thumb and forefinger, and wind it back on the reel, keeping the line under tension as you move forward. This method works best if you use a good quality ball-bearing swivel.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on January 24, 2011, 04:46:46 pm
In conclusion, Line-twist is one of those problems that usually arises when some attention to the details of using a Spinning reel is ignored.

Hopefully, this article will help someone out there to have a more hassle free fishing experience, and to beat the dreaded curse of the Wind Knot!

With the advent of Fuji anti-tangle guides, KR Concept and so forth, this problem should be a thing of the past. If you're diligent with the stuff above and still suffering, then change the guides on your rod. You'll never look back.


Best fishes!
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: WalkersKiller on January 24, 2011, 04:51:50 pm
Super post Reefz  :tkx:  :win:  (clap)
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on January 24, 2011, 04:59:15 pm
Another brilliant post, Coach!  (clap)  :uarocks :ult:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Cam Mundy on January 24, 2011, 07:46:32 pm
Excellent post  :happ: the one thing that you forgot to mention is that a wind knot will almost always occur as soon as you spot the fish swimming by.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: MIKE PIKE on January 24, 2011, 07:59:31 pm
 (clap) ... Ultimate post Tony..now wheres that cred button. :tkx:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: ProKayak on January 24, 2011, 10:03:48 pm
 :tkx: :tkx: :tkx: :tkx: :tkx: :tkx: :tkx: 
 
a mill Reefs
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: shamwari on January 25, 2011, 06:27:32 am
Absolutely superb description, explanation, pictures and solutions  to wind knots ! Thank you !
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Fritz on January 25, 2011, 06:41:16 am
 :win: Post their Tony. Its allways a pleasure reading thru your posts.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: John F on January 25, 2011, 07:09:51 am
Monster post Reefs!

Thank you!
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: icstuff on January 25, 2011, 07:52:35 am
 :win:
You where like, reading my thoughts man
 :tkx:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: CLS on January 25, 2011, 08:01:11 am
 :win: Thanks Reefs
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Quickbite on January 25, 2011, 09:25:26 am
 :uarocks - now Reefman gave me some work to do this weekend ...and i gota study
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: ProKayak on January 26, 2011, 07:14:36 am
:uarocks - now Reefman gave me some work to do this weekend ...and i gota study

 
EINA......
& I'm going to test this at Scottbugh
 
 fshg
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: ProKayak on February 01, 2011, 08:46:23 am
ADMIN WE NEED another "emotionconpic" here ......
 
STAMP OF APPROVAL !!!
 :tkx: :win:
 
 
Tried & tested, Thnx Mr Reefs
Got 2 small Blacktails & 3 other fish that I don't know  :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
One amasing run, drag was 2 tight & it broke off
My dad caught a small Parrot fish
 
Only one wind knot for entire trip.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on February 01, 2011, 08:51:19 am
Good stuff Gawie... well done!  (clap)
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: shagnrelease on February 01, 2011, 09:14:06 am
now this is a quality post!! well done reefz!! :ayb
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: TUNAMAN on February 01, 2011, 10:31:55 am
Wow speechless....Cred to you Reefz!
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Kevinm40 on February 13, 2014, 10:23:15 am
Great post Reefz! :win:

I had endless problems with my first spinning kit Daiwa Exceller 4000Z + Daiwa Exceller SW 10'6 rod, had wind knots on almost every cast.  after breaking off several lures and cutting off lots of braid, i sold the kit, switched to Shimano Stradjic 5000 + Assasin Amia H (microwave guides) + goosen braid, casting like a pro, the areas i fish require long casts.  i figured the problem was more with how the braid packed on the reel when retrieved. 
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Spieks on February 13, 2014, 10:34:50 am
 :tkx: Quality Tony!
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on February 13, 2014, 10:57:20 am
The auto bail reset function is the mechanism that causes the reel's bail arm to engage or click back over once the reel handle is turned...... 

In some of the cheaper reels, the force of the cast will cause the reel handle to move slightly forward, causing the bail arm to snap closed in mid-cast... when this happens you can say good bye to your lure, your leader and a portion of your expensive braid! This is called a snap off.

It is advisable to have this function removed from your reel to stop this from happening.

I recently got myself a Daiwa Exceler 4000 H and have experienced the above when I tried to get some good distance. It helps somewhat to look at the position of the reel's handle and position it in such a way that it will not move mid cast and cause the bail arm to click over but this is a schlep.
How easy is it to remove the auto bail reset function?

Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on February 13, 2014, 11:24:34 am
Piece of old takkie....

http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=14550.msg233663#msg233663 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=14550.msg233663#msg233663)

On the Line roller side of the Rotor... this will work in almost all fixed spool reels...

(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/sustain/Bail%201.jpg)


(There might be another small screw underneath the Rotor as well.)

Take the Bail trip lever out completely.

Leave the Bail spring in place!!

(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/sustain/Bail%203.jpg)

What the Bail trip lever looks like... On the RIGHT.
This is a pic of the Bail spring and the Lever removed. [size=1.45em]Do not remove the Bail spring, leave it in place. Just take the Trip lever out.[/size]

(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/sustain/Bail%206.jpg)

Screw the cover back on and away you go.

Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: caesar on February 13, 2014, 12:08:09 pm
Awesome information. Wish I had this information a year or two ago. I thought braid was the biggest crap on earth. I was so peed off that I through all my braid away.
A couple of months ago I tried it again after researching it a bit on the net. I have pretty much done what you explained here and no issue again. Your explanation is by far the best. The photos helps a lot. Now I love the stuff, cast miles and I can feel every movement and bite.
Awesome, awesome awesome.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on February 13, 2014, 12:16:03 pm
 (clap) Thanks Reefz,  :+ cred:  I will do the modification tonight as I want to go and spin for Leeries on the weekend.   :hnthnt:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on February 15, 2014, 02:30:29 pm
(clap) Thanks Reefz,  :+ cred:  I will do the modification tonight as I want to go and spin for Leeries on the weekend.   :hnthnt:
This modification took me a full minute and a half.  :hehe: Thanks again Reefz.
On my way to look for some Leerie action.  :hnthnt:  :fshn: :grk:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on November 25, 2014, 11:52:52 am
The wind knots are really ruining my fishing at this stage. I have tried everything Reefz said and it still happens. The only thing that helped in the end is to twist my rod while casting so that the rod eyes face away from the wind. Let me explain, the wind is blowing from the East and I am facing South. When I cast I twist/roll the rod so that the eyes and reel face West. This maneuver helps a bit but has an effect on my casting distance. I now have three options:
1. ditch the braid and replace it with mono
2. go back to spinning with my Abu 6500 C3
3. buy a Stella (I wish but it is not going to happen  :cry:)

What else can I do?

  :cnfzd :-( duh <: idt

 
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on November 25, 2014, 01:00:07 pm
What reel are you using? What rod? What braid?
Biggest cause of windknots is an overfilled reel!
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Lofty on November 25, 2014, 01:04:00 pm
This might be a stupid question but do you have "casting braid"on your reel?Reason I ask,is that I didn't realise that there were different braids for different applications...ex.backing braid and 8 weave casting braid,anyway,I lost a lot of lures too as I was using backing braid as casting braid... :blush: Since I loaded 8 weave spinning/casting braid no more wind knots,not even 1.. :rck" another thing I do is to have my mono leader knot outside the top guide before casting.It also helps to stop the line from coming off the reel with your hand after a cast,I stop the line as the plug/spoon or w.h.y. hits the water.  Obviously also don't overfill your spool with braid...
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Lofty on November 25, 2014, 01:09:13 pm
b.t.w. I've got the 8 weave on different makes of reel too,and still no wind-knots...Shimano stradic 5000fj,Penn Fierce 4000 frc and Daiwa Regal 3000,I don't use braid leaders so all with mono leaders with braid-leader knot outside the top guide...
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Steenie on November 25, 2014, 01:17:25 pm
The wind knots are really ruining my fishing at this stage. I have tried everything Reefz said and it still happens. The only thing that helped in the end is to twist my rod while casting so that the rod eyes face away from the wind. Let me explain, the wind is blowing from the East and I am facing South. When I cast I twist/roll the rod so that the eyes and reel face West. This maneuver helps a bit but has an effect on my casting distance. I now have three options:
1. ditch the braid and replace it with mono
2. go back to spinning with my Abu 6500 C3
3. buy a Stella (I wish but it is not going to happen  :cry:)

What else can I do?

  :cnfzd :-( duh <: idt

Sorry to hear of your frustrations! What PE rating braid are you using on your 4000 size reel? In other words, is it designed for the braid you are using? For example, on a Stradic 5000 reel you will get wind knots if you go below a PE 1.5 braid, because the spacing washers cannot correct the braid coning sufficiently. Same happens if you go too high PE rating on the 5000 (cannot remember what the upper limit is for the 5000, somewhere above PE 2.0). Matching the correct PE rating braid with the correct spacing washers inserted below the spool solved my wind knot problems 100 percent! And you can fill the spool to the brim and no worries about having to keep the braid tight during retrieval of the lures. Come wind or no wind.

For example the standard 8-weave Gosen 25 lbs is PE 2.0. But the 25 lbs Gosen jigging braid is thinner and has a PE rating of 1.5. So on my Stradic 5000 I can still go lower than 25 lbs standard Gosen, but nothing lower than 25 lbs if I spool with the jigging Gosen.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on November 25, 2014, 01:26:33 pm
What reel are you using? What rod? What braid?
Biggest cause of windknots is an overfilled reel!
Daiwa Exceler 4000 H, 9ft Vengeance rod and if I can remember 15lbs Gator casting braid. I am not 100% sure of the braid and will have to check. The reel is not over filled and have about 3mm space left below the lip of the spool.
I don't have any problems until the there is a cross wind.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on November 25, 2014, 01:29:21 pm
Sorry to hear of your frustrations! What PE rating braid are you using on your 4000 size reel? In other words, is it designed for the braid you are using? For example, on a Stradic 5000 reel you will get wind knots if you go below a PE 1.5 braid, because the spacing washers cannot correct the braid coning sufficiently. Same happens if you go too high PE rating on the 5000 (cannot remember what the upper limit is for the 5000, somewhere above PE 2.0). Matching the correct PE rating braid with the correct spacing washers inserted below the spool solved my wind knot problems 100 percent! And you can fill the spool to the brim and no worries about having to keep the braid tight during retrieval of the lures. Come wind or no wind.

For example the standard 8-weave Gosen 25 lbs is PE 2.0. But the 25 lbs Gosen jigging braid is thinner and has a PE rating of 1.5. So on my Stradic 5000 I can still go lower than 25 lbs standard Gosen, but nothing lower than 25 lbs if I spool with the jigging Gosen.
I am not sure what the PE rating of the braid is and will have to check if I still have the spool. I normally keep it for reference but after we moved to a new house it might be gone.  :-(
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Steenie on November 25, 2014, 01:31:24 pm
What reel are you using? What rod? What braid?
Biggest cause of windknots is an overfilled reel!
Daiwa Exceler 4000 H, 9ft Vengeance rod and if I can remember 15lbs Gator casting braid. I am not 100% sure of the braid and will have to check. The reel is not over filled and have about 3mm space left below the lip of the spool.
I don't have any problems until the there is a cross wind.

Did the reel come with spacing washers and are you using some of them? This is a critical factor!
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on November 25, 2014, 01:36:28 pm
What reel are you using? What rod? What braid?
Biggest cause of windknots is an overfilled reel!
Daiwa Exceler 4000 H, 9ft Vengeance rod and if I can remember 15lbs Gator casting braid. I am not 100% sure of the braid and will have to check. The reel is not over filled and have about 3mm space left below the lip of the spool.
I don't have any problems until the there is a cross wind.

The Exceler is not the greatest reel for Windknots. Also had problems with mine for years. The Taper of the line lay is suspect, usually a reverse cone, which causes havoc. Make sure that the taper of the line lay is in a cone shape, (more at the bottom than at the top). If not, then you need to add a spacer washer to try fix it. I eventually resorted to using a standard aluminium thick washer to get the line lay half decent. I remember Ziggy also had a serious issue with his a few years back and eventually insisted that they replace the reel.
Think the problem was rectified in the new Exceler Z's, but the old one's - the Exc plus, Excel E etc were very bad.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Ziggy on November 25, 2014, 01:48:10 pm
What reel are you using? What rod? What braid?
Biggest cause of windknots is an overfilled reel!
Daiwa Exceler 4000 H, 9ft Vengeance rod and if I can remember 15lbs Gator casting braid. I am not 100% sure of the braid and will have to check. The reel is not over filled and have about 3mm space left below the lip of the spool.
I don't have any problems until the there is a cross wind.



The Exceler is not the greatest reel for Windknots. Also had problems with mine for years. The Taper of the line lay is suspect, usually a reverse cone, which causes havoc. Make sure that the taper of the line lay is in a cone shape, (more at the bottom than at the top). If not, then you need to add a spacer washer to try fix it. I eventually resorted to using a standard aluminium thick washer to get the line lay half decent. I remember Ziggy also had a serious issue with his a few years back and eventually insisted that they replace the reel.
Think the problem was rectified in the new Exceler Z's, but the old one's - the Exc plus, Excel E etc were very bad.
:corrct:  -  and now I buy only shimano!! Mainly because of the bad customer service I received form the Daiwa dealer who claimed that it was a "problem with the computer" inside the reel - I mean, I may be a bit dof but.......??????

Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Steenie on November 25, 2014, 01:49:36 pm
What reel are you using? What rod? What braid?
Biggest cause of windknots is an overfilled reel!
Daiwa Exceler 4000 H, 9ft Vengeance rod and if I can remember 15lbs Gator casting braid. I am not 100% sure of the braid and will have to check. The reel is not over filled and have about 3mm space left below the lip of the spool.
I don't have any problems until the there is a cross wind.

The Exceler is not the greatest reel for Windknots. Also had problems with mine for years. The Taper of the line lay is suspect, usually a reverse cone, which causes havoc. Make sure that the taper of the line lay is in a cone shape, (more at the bottom than at the top). If not, then you need to add a spacer washer to try fix it. I eventually resorted to using a standard aluminium thick washer to get the line lay half decent. I remember Ziggy also had a serious issue with his a few years back and eventually insisted that they replace the reel.
Think the problem was rectified in the new Exceler Z's, but the old one's - the Exc plus, Excel E etc were very bad.

Jip a reverse cone is absolutely fatal! Coning less at the top than at the bottom is far safer as long as this is not excessive causing a void (gap) to form between top of the braid and the upper spool edge. Braid coils will fall in on itself into this void, and this causes windknots.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Steenie on November 25, 2014, 01:54:15 pm
The coning on my Stradic 5000 with Gosen 25 lbs (PE 2.0) braid filled to 1 mm of spool lip. Braid packing at top and bottom of reel is identical. No windknots with this setup, which I use for 2-3 hours every day for 5 - 6 days per week.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on November 25, 2014, 01:55:09 pm
Did the reel come with spacing washers and are you using some of them? This is a critical factor!
Not that I know of and will check the box.

The Exceler is not the greatest reel for Windknots. Also had problems with mine for years. The Taper of the line lay is suspect, usually a reverse cone, which causes havoc. Make sure that the taper of the line lay is in a cone shape, (more at the bottom than at the top). If not, then you need to add a spacer washer to try fix it. I eventually resorted to using a standard aluminium thick washer to get the line lay half decent. I remember Ziggy also had a serious issue with his a few years back and eventually insisted that they replace the reel.
Think the problem was rectified in the new Exceler Z's, but the old one's - the Exc plus, Excel E etc were very bad.
I wish I knew this before I got the reel. The reel is definitely not laying the line in a cone shape but equal top and bottom. Any idea how thick the washer should be? If I can't fix it I will have to get another reel, not a Daiwa again, possibly a Shimano. 
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Lofty on November 25, 2014, 01:58:17 pm
now that you guys mention it...my Daiwa regal 3k also cones..thinner top than bottom of spool,checked the box and found no spacing washers,I then added an alluminium washer to the bottom of the spool,now line lay is better but still not perfect,at least the wind-knots are gone... :-) for now.. :-(
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on November 25, 2014, 02:01:23 pm
This is what the spacer washers look like on the Exceler... 2 weren't enough to sort the line lay out and I added an Aluminium washer about 1.5mm thick between the 2 plastic ones...

(http://africanaquatics.co.za/FISHING/Fishing%20stuff/REEL%20MAINTENANCE/EXCELER/DAIWA%20EXCELER/EXCELER%2011.jpg)
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on November 25, 2014, 02:03:43 pm
Thanks Reefs, I will add a washer as see how it goes. I am getting really fed-up with the reel. Maybe it is just a bout of TA, it is after all my birthday next week.  :hyst:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on November 25, 2014, 02:33:51 pm
Herman, unfortunately (in my experience), the Daiwa spinning reels in this size class are just not up to the Shimano's. Go buy yourself a Stradic 5000FJ and donate the Exceler to your lightie - he will be chuffed. The Exceler's are decent, but as soon as you become a proficient spinner or dropshotter, they start falling short of what you expect. Yes, I see a bout of TA coming up... don't worry, you deserve it.
 w;k
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Seventenths on November 25, 2014, 02:42:07 pm
WOW - Awesome post Reefs - It has already all been, said so just  :+ cred:  to you.
This makes putting up with SAfish on this site almost worth it :hehe: ...Love you too Herman!!
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on November 25, 2014, 02:48:04 pm
Hahaha Sevens... this post is only 4 years old...! Skud jou kop sodat jou ore jou laat wakker Klap boetie!  :rotfl
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on November 25, 2014, 02:53:12 pm
WOW - Awesome post Reefs - It has already all been, said so just  :+ cred:  to you.
This makes putting up with SAfish on this site almost worth it :hehe: ...Love you too Herman!!
:hyst: :hyst: I will now have to remove myself from this conversation, I have to go reel shopping.  :crzy
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on November 25, 2014, 02:54:24 pm
Herman, unfortunately (in my experience), the Daiwa spinning reels in this size class are just not up to the Shimano's. Go buy yourself a Stradic 5000FJ and donate the Exceler to your lightie - he will be chuffed. The Exceler's are decent, but as soon as you become a proficient spinner or dropshotter, they start falling short of what you expect. Yes, I see a bout of TA coming up... don't worry, you deserve it.
 w;k
Reefs, I think I will do this, my son would be over the moon with his new reel.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on November 25, 2014, 02:56:45 pm
Herman, unfortunately (in my experience), the Daiwa spinning reels in this size class are just not up to the Shimano's. Go buy yourself a Stradic 5000FJ and donate the Exceler to your lightie - he will be chuffed. The Exceler's are decent, but as soon as you become a proficient spinner or dropshotter, they start falling short of what you expect. Yes, I see a bout of TA coming up... don't worry, you deserve it.
 w;k
Reefs, I think I will do this, my son would be over the moon with his new reel.

I like the way you think Hermann...  :hehe:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on November 25, 2014, 03:02:26 pm
 :hehe: I can't afford to struggle with equipment that is not up to my expectations. Just the other day I missed a Leerie smash right in front of me because of a wind knot. The fishing is picking up now and I need to be ready. I wonder what my wife is going to say when I win another reel in a "competition".  :creep: :creep: :creep: :hehe:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Steenie on November 25, 2014, 03:10:36 pm
Ja go and buy yourself a Stradic or Sustain. No use trying to panel beat a reel that is not designed for the job at hand. But even with the Stradic or Sustain I suggest you get an expert to fill it up for the 1st time and adjust the coning with the spacing washers if required. The reel need to be set up for the PE rating braid that you put on. My stradic works 100% with the PE2.0 Gosen after adding some of these washers. But when I go down to the PE1.5 Gosen jigging braid early next year, the guys at Basil Manning will have to adjust the reel coning for this new braid.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Seventenths on November 25, 2014, 03:51:35 pm
Hahaha Sevens... this post is only 4 years old...! Skud jou kop sodat jou ore jou laat wakker Klap boetie!  :rotfl

damn did not think my ears were so big..... :blush:  ....but my embarrassment is!
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on December 20, 2014, 01:36:34 pm
OK, so after I got my new Sustain I found out that I made a rookie mistake. If you spin with braid and use a leader, don't make your leader long enough for the knots to pass through your rod's eyes. When you cast the knots will slow down your mono slightly which causes a loop or over-wind in your braid which can then easily wrap around your rod eyes.  :blush:  I did not know this. 
Yes Homie, straf dop time!  :hehe:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: deezynking on December 20, 2014, 03:20:43 pm
brilliant post....  :resp:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: hookedon on June 11, 2018, 02:52:34 pm
Hi Reefs


Do  these wind knots occur on a free spool reel as well?


And thanks for all your contributions
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on June 11, 2018, 02:57:20 pm
No, but overwinds happen on Multiplier reels which are much worse than a wind knot. And wind knots are simple to avoid.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: MadRookie on April 20, 2019, 08:36:34 am
Hi Reefman,
Just a question about spooling the reel.....
You recommend that if the reel winds clockwise then the line from the refill spool should wind off anti-clockwise?
I am confused as all the articles/info on the internet claims that both the reel & refill spool must wind in the same direction??
Please help?
Thx.
:)
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on April 20, 2019, 04:24:24 pm
Most reels - the bail arm turns clockwise (looking at the front of the   reel). Therefore the line is laid down in a clockwise pattern. To stop   the line twisting anywhere, it must come off the new line spool in   exactly the same pattern - and that is anti-clockwise if you're looking   at the label of the new line spool. (or clockwise if you're looking   at it in the same plane as if you were looking at the reel).
So if you're looking at the front of the Spool of new line, the line coming off will be anti-clockwise. If you're looking at the spool from the back, the line will be coming off clockwise!

The line is now laid onto the reel in exactly the same way that it comes off the new line spool, passively - with minimum rotation and line twist.

Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: MadRookie on April 21, 2019, 07:12:56 am
Thank you very much for your rapid reply.

:)
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Schulla on April 21, 2019, 02:42:34 pm
OK, so after I got my new Sustain I found out that I made a rookie mistake. If you spin with braid and use a leader, don't make your leader long enough for the knots to pass through your rod's eyes. When you cast the knots will slow down your mono slightly which causes a loop or over-wind in your braid which can then easily wrap around your rod eyes.  :blush:  I did not know this. 
Yes Homie, straf dop time!  :hehe:


Hi SAfish, I note you mention the length of your leader when spinning with braid.  I'm in two minds here.  1) I agree with your explanation and in this case it makes sense that your leader knot should be in front of your rod tip when ready to cast, as it protects the knot from catching onto the eyes.  2) I have found that if my leader is this short though, I get a lot of "cast offs", especially with heavier lures as all the shock goes into the knot/braid. When I however use a longer leader with about two/three winds around the spool when ready to cast, it prevents cast offs and I don't seem to get over-winds either. I'm using both Sustain and Stradic 4000 and 5000 reels on 8ft and 11ft Assassin Amia rods. Thoughts?
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on April 21, 2019, 05:45:49 pm
 :welc: Schulla.
I have used the same method (2) when I had the problem with wind knots. What may have contributed to the problem was the knot I was using at the time. I can't remember which knot I used but have sinse started using the FG knot and had no cast offs. I may be wrong but I think that the knot passing through your rod eyes are contributing to your problem. What breaking strain is your leader and braid and what is the weight of your lure when you get a cast off? I fish with up to 2oz plugs, some times slightly heavier and use 30lbs braid paired with a 30lbs zippy leader. Anyone else wants to share their thoughts?
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Charles on April 21, 2019, 08:21:06 pm
I use the FG knot. Short leader and never had a wind knot or cast off.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: REEFMAN on April 22, 2019, 12:18:31 pm
OK, so after I got my new Sustain I found out that I made a rookie mistake. If you spin with braid and use a leader, don't make your leader long enough for the knots to pass through your rod's eyes. When you cast the knots will slow down your mono slightly which causes a loop or over-wind in your braid which can then easily wrap around your rod eyes.  :blush:  I did not know this. 
Yes Homie, straf dop time!  :hehe:



Hi SAfish, I note you mention the length of your leader when spinning with braid.  I'm in two minds here.  1) I agree with your explanation and in this case it makes sense that your leader knot should be in front of your rod tip when ready to cast, as it protects the knot from catching onto the eyes.  2) I have found that if my leader is this short though, I get a lot of "cast offs", especially with heavier lures as all the shock goes into the knot/braid. When I however use a longer leader with about two/three winds around the spool when ready to cast, it prevents cast offs and I don't seem to get over-winds either. I'm using both Sustain and Stradic 4000 and 5000 reels on 8ft and 11ft Assassin Amia rods. Thoughts?

You should be using a Braid leader... http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=15598.0


 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=15598.0)
A much stronger leader than your braid mainline, which then connects to 1m Mono outside the guides. This stops the snap offs forever.
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: SAfish on April 22, 2019, 02:24:46 pm
Thanks Tony. I don't know how I missed this thread but I am going to switch to a braid leader as soon as possible.  :udman:
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: fishatic on April 22, 2019, 06:55:11 pm
Just a consideration when using light braid main line to a heavy braid casting leader to heavy mono:
When you snag, and you will, something needs to give.
I like a fuse somewhere up front such that I don't break my main line off 50m up....
Aside from cost and inconvenience, there is the harm 50m of braid flapping around a beach can cause

As an example:
25lb main line FG'd/stitched to 50lb braid leader; FG'd to 1m of .70mm mono - if you snag you run a high risk of breaking off your mainline as .70mm mono breaks somewhere around 50lb... (unknotted of course)  assume 10% loss when knotted and wet it should break at say 45lb; way more than your main line.

25lb main line FG'd/stitched to 50lb braid leader; FG'd to 1m of .50mm mono - if   you snag the wet knotted mono should break first...
Something you need to think about and test when you decide on your mono dia / breaking strain

Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: Don1234 on May 07, 2019, 01:23:05 pm
Hi guys just found this on youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIlMd6f1qGA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIlMd6f1qGA)
Title: Re: LINE TWIST - Taking control of line twist and Wind knots.
Post by: MadRookie on May 07, 2019, 01:56:31 pm
I ordered one - works brilliantly once you set it up properly.

Also to accompany it I made my own line retrieval thingy

(http://i64.tinypic.com/120l2es.jpg)

(http://i67.tinypic.com/ama55i.jpg)

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2hdofbp.jpg)

(http://i63.tinypic.com/ev7yv6.jpg)