ULTIMATE ANGLING - the Ultimate SA Fishing website
General Angling Topics => Shore Angling => THE GRINDER REVOLUTION => Topic started by: REEFMAN on October 05, 2015, 12:18:34 PM
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If I wanted to tie a Braid leader straight to a swivel, to attach a throwbait trace, what's the knot of choice? What knot are the League boys using?
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Bimini and cats paw is what a few guys use
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Brad do you use a Braid leader on your setup?
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I use 7 turn uni if direct to swivel. All other connections FG knot
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Brad do you use a Braid leader on your setup?
30lb yes I use a 50lb leader. Then joined to a 1m piece of mono which joins to the swivel of my trace.
On the 50lb I haven't used a leader but made up some now of 100lb
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Brad do you use a Braid leader on your setup?
30lb yes I use a 50lb leader. Then joined to a 1m piece of mono which joins to the swivel of my trace.
On the 50lb I haven't used a leader but made up some now of 100lb
My problem is I can't cast a 2m drop.... 1m mono + 1m trace...
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I use 7 turn uni if direct to swivel. All other connections FG knot
Do you double the Braid before doing the Uni?
Is this how you fish your throwbaits Doc?
With Braid leader?
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50lb braid to 200lb braid leader FG knot, prefer 200lb to 1m nylon also FG knot then nylon to swivel.
If I throw log FMJ traces I tie the 200lb straight to the swivel otherwise the drop gets to long when wading.
No need to double the 200lb braid.
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2 turn palomar then a couple of half hitches. Stood up to 20kgs of drag for an hour on 37kg braid - but probably only a 70% knot.
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Here we go Reefz
http://www.saltstrong.com/articles/strongest-palomar-knot/ (http://www.saltstrong.com/articles/strongest-palomar-knot/)
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Awesome, thanks for the responses guys... :+ cred: to you all.
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Brad do you use a Braid leader on your setup?
30lb yes I use a 50lb leader. Then joined to a 1m piece of mono which joins to the swivel of my trace.
On the 50lb I haven't used a leader but made up some now of 100lb
My problem is I can't cast a 2m drop.... 1m mono + 1m trace...
Ok my traces are considerably shorter. Generally 60cm to max 80cm in which case the mono "leader" gets shortened slightly. So in total 1.6M.
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Reefz - you've probably made up your mind by now as I don't think there's a single knot you've not come across or tied already.... However I couldn't resist this one. I'm keen to know what you finally settle on.
I can't remember where I got this from so credit to the cyber fisherman concerned.
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Ya that Doubled Palomar with Double overhand is just so simple and easy - did a few last night and couldn't break them, so I'm sold!
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One more for added measure for some of the UA members still interested in this topic....
Can't go too badly off with the Berkley stamp of approval.
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:win: this knot is so easy . :tkx: :toppie:
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Hopefully I can get down to some serious project work now.... Can't seem to get going today...
UA addiction?
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:rotfl Harold. Must be the heat...
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If at home I double the braid and pass it through the eye/swivel. I then try (its difficult) to make the loop do an fg around the doubled line. You have to twist the loop 180 degress either clockwise or anticlockwise, then pass the hook through the remainder of the loop, bringing it to the other side of the doubled line, then twist again, but this time in the opposite direction to the first twist, and again pass the hook through the loop. Continue until you have 8-9 twists, and gently tension making sure the knot forms properly. An odd amount of turns leaves the double line exiting the knot to one side like a snell, and an even amount it exits in the middle like most knots. Dont try this on the beach, but if you want the strongest knot, this is it in my opinion. I stumbled on this know while trying to figure out how to fg braid for a loop to loop connection, which incidently also works well but has to be finishe with at least two cat paw turns to prevent cutting the mono.
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I think I got odd amount of turns mixed up, but you"ll figure it out if you have the patience to try this knot.
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Brad do you use a Braid leader on your setup?
30lb yes I use a 50lb leader. Then joined to a 1m piece of mono which joins to the swivel of my trace.
On the 50lb I haven't used a leader but made up some now of 100lb
My problem is I can't cast a 2m drop.... 1m mono + 1m trace...
My Dear Reef Man,
Have you forgotten already as to what guides you have on your SS? You can fish a full length nylon leader with low riders. As for the initial question, assuming you have a 120-200lb braid leader, attach this to the swivel either with a 7 turn uni. There is no need to double it up because at the diameter, your main braid would pop first.
If you are considering to have a setup purely for throw baits, id suggest, 50lb braid to 120lb braid leader (short piece just for the bionic finger) attached this to the nylon leader via FG, Double Polomar (as suggested below) or lastly an Albright.
:gt:
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Confused now... Why don't you use a Mono leader? :dunno:
Brandon also said I should try a Mono leader, so maybe that's what I'm going to try... tapered leader! Then I don't need the Bionic finger either??
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Mono is harder to throw on a bionic finger and also its quite awkward on the knot from 50lb braid to a 1mm leader eg.
Tapered works well but awkward on the knot as its quite bulky.
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So I'm gonna try a Tapered leader connected to mainline with an FG... that should be the bizz. Cast off my finger then.
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You never really liked the finger :(
FG is by far the best...just make sure its tied correctly!
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No I'm good with the Bionic... really happy with the results I was getting with the Braid leader on the Bionic. Will try the mono on the Bionic as well, maybe it works for me. :dunno: If it works like the Braid then it'll be awesome.
Remember, I'm a complete rookie with this setup... with practice I can only improve?
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I would be very careful of full nylon leader seen a lot of guys experiment with it and it normally ends in a breakoff as the braid just behind the leader wraps around a eye. Especially if they try to force the cast.
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I tried the mono leader at Mazeppa and although mine may have been a bit thick at 1.1mm I did not like it because what seems to happen is that the way the leader is stored on the spool contributes to some serious memory. When it comes off the spool it smashes into that first guide and really stops the line speed.
Reckon I will stick to the braid leader to short mono leader outside the guides
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I would be very careful of full nylon leader seen a lot of guys experiment with it and it normally ends in a breakoff as the braid just behind the leader wraps around a eye. Especially if they try to force the cast.
Not with Low Riders Doc :hnthnt:
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I see. Still would not try it on my stuff first let somebody else be the guinea pig.
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Don't fish as often as the coastal guys but the last 6 leagues iv yet to wrap a guide, part off etc. The diff lies in using the correct guides. You can't do this with a flip up guide and the rest of the guides having low rides or k. It has to be a full set. Plenty of advantage!
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:tkx:
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Hi Tony,
Brandon built my rod with the first two guides being low riders and the rest normal Fuji guides - theory is that if the first two guides do their job properly, the why go for low riders all the way, and I was on a budget..
Anyway, I use my rod with a Daiwa Oceano 4500 loaded with 14lb Berkley Fireline and tie a .55mm full length leader (FG Knot) and I can cast that setup directly off my spool and you cannot even hear the knot pass through the guides. Forget what you learnt from using braid and leaders with the leader always being outside the guides - it does not apply to low riders - especially when using the FG knot.
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Awesome! Thanks guys. Gonna give this a bash this weekend.
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When you say braid leader, I assume you have stitched in a leader to your 50lb?
I would recommend stitching to a 6 - 10m leader of 80-120lb high quality 8 strand braid, the cheap rovex (rebranded sufix) boat braid was perfect for this as was HMP. Then tie FG to a 1.2 mm or 1mm nylon leader. Tie the FG "the easy way" where the braid is taught and the mono is taken away from you then towards you, that method gets the consistent correct line lay of the braid in the weave of the chinese finger trap, do the first half hitch to secure the knot then pull the crap out of it to tension it and seat the knot, it it is going to fail it will fail now, then finish your half hitches and mono tag as you like. From mono to terminal tie a four turn centuari, but then as you take the tag back around from the last loop, take it through the eye of the clip/hook/swivel in the same direction as the original pass and then take it back and pass through the loops, shape the centuari correctly, moisten knot, grab and keep tag taught and pull knot tight from mainline side watching it at the same time to make sure it cinches up correctly. Pull the crap out of this so that it is seated and won't slip. Good to go. Importantly,make your mono leader long enough but keep your fg knot 6 inches below your stripper eye or above it and you won't get the wrapping knot with the braid, if the fg knot is near your finger or on your spool then you will get these knots ( aside from the other cause of windknots).
If you insist on braid leader to terminal you have a few options, remember that your braid mainline is at least half of your braid leaders breaking strength so any decent knots on the leader will actually do. This taking into account a 100% braid to braid connection, ie. stitch. One option is a 60 turn in lighter braid or 40-50 turn in heavier braid bimini. Take care to lay it all carefully and it is very close to but not 100%, then a simple loop over to a swivel is fine from here, the line or bimini will break before the loop does everytime ( I've destructively tested this connection many, many times.) One does not need a catspaw although it is stronger as a simple loop around, as in this case the bimini is the weak point but only just, below the leaderbraid which is the next weak point but actually the braid mainline is far weaker. A simple loop over is preferable sometimes to an offshore swivel knot like in this case as it is strong enough for purpose (not the weak point ) and can be unpicked and untied ready for looping over again and using again another time, many times over, so your terminal rig can be easily packed up after a fish and line wound back on the reel if you have to break your tackle down. So also in fact as a commercial mate showed me, when in a rush with braid, just a double overhand loop knot with a loop over is stronger than any knot with a double line or normal knot in braid (like uni or blood knot etc.. test it you will be surprised) and in the case as stated, strong enough as with a 100% braid to braid connection and 50lb to 80-120lb braid leader your mainline will pop everytime before the stitch does or a double overhand loop in leader looped to swivel does, they are both stronger than mainline. Just have a very weak sinker connection and be careful with heavy hook lines as with such strong leader connections you might pop the mainline close to your rod tip or where you have wrapped the line itself when busting off and this is expensive and leaves lots of braid behind and it pays to engineer weak points that are strong enough to pull fish as hard as you can but where you can still bust off where you want when you need to.
For powerful fish I recommended having a bit of a mono leader just to give a bit of stretch to prevent hooks pulling or working themselves free and to make it a little more forgiving on you. The stretch of the mono versus braid is a bonus for powerful unforgiving fish, a compromise helps.
Thanks for the opportunity to advise the great reefs! Thanks for all your guides over the years, here and on sealine, they helped me loads.
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The above centuari knot, four turns and back through the eye and then through the loops comes from yellowtail specialists/legends from the E cape and has been used for decades for fish like cape town tuna by the guy that showed me. You can increase the loops for braid I guess and would work for the terminal connection as well for your heavier leader braid.. Your terminal knot just needs to be a bit stronger than your main line and be able to absorb some shoch without popping..
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When you say braid leader, I assume you have stitched in a leader to your 50lb?
Thanks for your interesting perspective on this...
My braid leader is stitched into a loop, but is joined to the mainline with a Modified CatsPaw. http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=15598.msg258040#msg258040 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=15598.msg258040#msg258040)
This I can do easily at the beach if necessary.
I'm fishing 40lb Sufix Pro x8 mainline, 80lb YGK Jigman Leader... on a 4-6oz rod.
Thanks for the opportunity to advise the great reefs! Thanks for all your guides over the years, here and on sealine, they helped me loads.
"Great"?!?? :rotfl Nawt bud, you're confuzzed... but I'm glad to have helped out a little anyhow! :bow:
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So I tried casting a full length 0.80 Tapered leader this weekend. Nowhere near as comfortable as the braid leader. The Mono memory coils are a little irritating coming off a fixed spool and going through the guides. I also had a snapoff mid cast in the mainline braid... nyeh... back to plan A = Braid leader direct to the Trace swivel.
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i cast braid off a multiplier... on my grinder the knot doesnt go into the eyes...
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So I tried casting a full length 0.80 Tapered leader this weekend. Nowhere near as comfortable as the braid leader. The Mono memory coils are a little irritating coming off a fixed spool and going through the guides. I also had a snapoff mid cast in the mainline braid... nyeh... back to plan A = Braid leader direct to the Trace swivel.
I'm not surprised with the outcome Reefz - This has been my experience as well; just waited for confirmation from you. There are still two options worth experimenting with unless you've done so already or have had enough of experimenting....
(1.) Use a full length mono leader joined to the mainline braid with a FG knot BUT have the join a short distance outside the spool. This will be a better shock absorber and protect the first few metres of braid.
(2.) Use a full length braid leader as you currently do and a short mono leader outside the guides just for that extra bit of stretch when you need it most.
An unrelated question.... instead of going the grinder route would a small multiplier using braid on that rod of yours not have been a better option? - I know this topic has been covered to some extent elsewhere but keen for some additional feedback.
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Once tried my Saltist 30H with braid, but also nyeh... just wasn't comfortable doing it... much prefer fishing Mono on multipliers.
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So with the main line braid joined onto a braid casting leader, irrespective of the knot used (stitched or FG), where is the knot on the cast ? On the spool or between the spool and the first eye.
:tkx:
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I keep my Braid leader to braid mainline knot on the spool Steve, covered by 2 or 3 wraps. Just gives me confidence to pressure through the cast.
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Thanks Reefman, makes sense.
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Are there any preferences regarding 4 or 8 strand braid for the casting leader, I would imagine a good 4 strand would be better.
I have a trip coming up and going to use the heavyish spinning set up for occasional rock and surf fishing...
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In my experience 8 strand braid for Spinning/Casting is always better than 4 strand, be it mainline or leader. But whether it's necessary for bait fishing... :dunno:
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Thanks Reefman, I would of thought a 4 strand casting leader was more durable.
What braid you guys using then.
Thanks
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Suffix 832 is excellent. also suffix performance pro. Powerpro superslick. Gosen x8. All great brands.
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Fishersteve , i've been using Sufix 832 for a while and quite happy with the results , also worth considering is the Sufix pro 8 and Gosen braids ..
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:hyst: shnepp MIke!
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:hyst: shnepp MIke!
:hyst: :hyst: .
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:tkx:
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For braid to braid I double the thinner braid, tie a three turn Uni around the leader, leaving the tag and the mainline running parallel. The tag should be about 500mm. It is then attached to a sinker (50lbs - 5oz, 30lbs 3 oz) From there I swing the sinker around both leader and mainline basically creating a pr knot.I do 100 turns. Finish with a couple of half hitches. I prefer the sinker to a bobin. Once you apply pressure to the knot you should notice that the uni does not have any pressure, because by that stage the leader is doing the hard work. The mainline (as in a pr knot) must also do turns around the leader before swinging the sinker. The uni is tied only to give you something to grip when doing the turns as the leader and mainline must be tight when making the knot. This may all sound complicated, but I can tie it in under 3 minutes, in wind on the beach, and there is no chance of damaging any lines as with a stitch. I still find a stitch (although strong) parts in the knot where this normally parts somewhere on the mainline. Give it a try, Id love some feedback. For overkill, you can repeat the process with the leader doing a pr knot around the mainline.