ULTIMATE ANGLING - the Ultimate SA Fishing website
General Angling Topics => REEL TECH, SERVICE AND MAINTENANCE => Topic started by: REEFMAN on July 01, 2013, 12:30:43 PM
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(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 1.jpg)
Officially Launching at the ICAST 2013 Show in Las Vegas in a few days time and arriving in SA in September, we have the privilege of having an in depth sneak preview of what makes up the new Penn Conflict. Black with gunmetal grey trimmings, it sure is a pretty reel!
The reel is aimed at the "Technical Inshore" enthusiast, whatever that means, I assume it's for estuaries and the like. South Africans will use this for R/Surf purposes too.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 2.jpg)
PENN CONFLICT SPECIFICATIONS
Gear Ratio: 5.6:1
Capacity: .38/305m .46/210m .48/190m
Weighs in at 605g
Components:
Full metal body
7+1 Sealed Stainless steel bearings
Aluminium Rotor
Techno-balanced rotor
Machined and Anodized Aluminium Spool
Machined and Anodized Aluminium handle
Stainless steel Main shaft
HT-100 Carbon fibre Drag washers
Infinite Anti-reverse
Heavy duty Alu Bail wire
Superline spool
Line Capacity rings (The one I was supplied with didn't have these?!)
So we're looking at a Spinning reel based very much on the Penn Battle, which in turn was based on the Penn Sargus. So we can expect minor upgrades on these previous models.
Interestingly, Alan Hawk rates the PENN BATTLE third best spinning reel in the under $100 category. I have never personally opened up a Battle, so I'm interested to see this one...
Let's bear the cost of this reel in mind when taking it apart. Just how much technology and features can you get into a reel of this price?
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 3.jpg)
Let's begin by taking it apart.
Remove the handle. Solid machined and anodized aluminium, similar to the Torque... nice! Eva foam knob.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 4.jpg)
Great start to the reel!! A serviceable handle, with 2 sealed bearings inside!! Very nice surprise for a reel in this class.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 5.jpg)
2 different angle Cross threads on the handle to prevent stripping of the Main gear.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 6.jpg)
The Drag Knob
Solid Composite plastic!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 7.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 8.jpg)
Inside the Drag Knob - Nicely sealed.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 9.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 10.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 11.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 12.jpg)
THE SPOOL
Machined aluminium with cut-outs to save weight.
The Penn Battle weighs 620g, while the Conflict is claimed to weigh 605g. My scale says 600g! First time I've ever found something weigh less than manufacturer's claims!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 13.jpg)
Spring retained Drag system...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 14.jpg)
Penn continue with their "superline spools" - a rubber insert that allows one to tie braid to the spool without any slipping!
Penn claim that this reel has Line Capacity rings, which is a useful feature, however the reel I was given didn't have these...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 15.jpg)
LIP OF THE SPOOL - this has definitely been improved to allow better casting characteristics. The spool lip now has a big inverse bevel to allow line travel off the spool much easier.
Remove the spool...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 16.jpg)
Reveals one of those Fixed Ratchet gears - fixed to the Main shaft. While providing for a much more solid platform for the spool to rest on, it creates havoc with the Servicing of the reel. In order to remove the Rotor, one has to first remove the Main shaft by opening up the Gearbox and dismantling the Crosswind Block from the Main shaft.
A Main shaft spool bearing! Another BIG plus for a reel in this class category!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 17.jpg)
So we need to stop here and get into the Gearbox... no problem, just remove 4 screws!! Love this design of the newer Penn Reels. Quick and Easy access to the gearbox is a major plus for me in any reel.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 18.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 19.jpg)
A nice feature.... helps with sealing the reel from water intrusion.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict%2048.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 20.jpg)
Inside, we need to unscrew the Cross wind block from the Main shaft. DO NOT try remove the Main gear first - the Main shaft fits between the bottom half of the main gear and the top half. It won't come out until you remove the Shaft...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 21.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 22.jpg)
Now we can slide the Main Shaft out, at the same time undoing the Rotor Nut and retainer plate.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 23.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 24.jpg)
Now we can remove the Drive Gear.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 25.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 26.jpg)
Never been a fan of the Reverse Cam systems as used in low end reels. That Cast "pot metal" type block is ugly and makes allowance for large discrepancies in gear tolerances.
But they work!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 27.jpg)
Back to the other side, remove the Rotor, we're left with this:
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 28.jpg)
Remove the AR Holder and washer.
Then the AR bushing and spring...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 29.jpg)
The bearing Retainer Plate
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 30.jpg)
And the Pinion Gear
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 31.jpg)
There were issues with the previous models having premature Bail closure on a cast. Penn seemed to have sorted this problem out with both the Battle and the Conflict wioth a decent Rotor brake and incline.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 32.jpg)
THE PINION GEAR ASSEMBLY
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 33.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 34.jpg)
THE ANTI-REVERSE BEARING
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 35.jpg)
Maintenance of this bearing should be with an anti-corrosive oil. A drop or 2 on the inside of the bearing and spread around will help stop this bearing from corroding and failing.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 36.jpg)
This is one of the few reels in this Class that has a fail-safe backup of the Anti-reverse bearing. Even though it is a plastic Pawl, if the Anti-reverse bearing fails, the Dog Pawl will kick in and prevent reverse of the Rotor. It might not last long, but it should help in landing that PB!
When the Rotor is rotating forward, the AR Holder holds the Dog Pawl out the way. But as soon as there is backward movement of the Rotor, the Dog Pawl moves outward and engages the teeth inside the Rotor. Instant Anti-reverse, with no play whatsoever!
One disconcerting spinoff of this feature is the clicking noise made by the Rotor on slow retrieval. Sounds like the Dog Pawl clicking in a Multiplier reel, except plastic on plastic instead of Metal on metal.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict%2028.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 37.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 38.jpg)
The Main Drive gear...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 39.jpg)
This gear has been the subject of much debate over the years... it is the same part number as both the Penn Battle and Sargus Drive Gears. I assume therefore that it is the same material used as before and hasn't been upgraded? This Drive Gear is Cast aluminium, one of the cheapest ways to manufacture a Drive Gear and apparently one of the weakest too. Having said that, there are very few (none, in fact!!) reported cases of failure of this Drive Gear in the Battle reels. I have searched the Internet far and wide, but haven't found any reported failures. So who knows? Perhaps Penn upgraded this Drive Gear and the Crosswind gear after the Sargus, and just kept the same Part number?
But the Gears definitely have that ugly 'potmetal' look about them, excpet for a few highly polished surfaces on the axles. Alan Hawk, in his review of the Penn Sargus back in 2008, claims that this gear is one piece, including the shaft. Having a look at the above picture, it's quite difficult to believe that is the case here - the axle is highly polished all the way through and to my untrained eye, seems to be 2 pieces? Again, who knows?
UPDATE:
I have managed to establish that the Battle definitely has an upgraded Drive Gear from the Sargus. The Battle has a "Machine cut Alloy main gear" according to the Penn Battle Specs on the box. This makes more sense to me but this has not been carried forward in the Conflict - one can see the print marks of a Cast metal part.
This reel is manufactured in China.
7 SEALED BEARINGS
The reel has 7 "sealed" bearings. Most reels have "sealed" bearings nowadays. However, what really surprised me is that these bearings had rubber seals, which are much better at sealing bearings than the stainless steel seals. Steel seals are generally loose fitting and in my opinion, a waste of time. I remove them completely on all my reels. I am speaking of budget bearings, not the expensive high tolerance bearings that are unsuitable for a reel of this class.
All 7 bearings on this reel have rubber seals! The bearings are the place where an uncared for reel will fail. Reels generally seize through corroded bearings restricting movement and eventually placing too much pressure on one of the inline components, causing breakage.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 40.jpg)
To service these bearings is much easier too. Once serviced properly, they can then be sealed again and left for some time before necessitating service again.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 41.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 42.jpg)
Interesting that these bearings all had the bare minimum of grease inside... To increase the longevity of this reel, These need to be properly greased out the box.
A bearing packed properly with a quality grease and resealed with rubber seals is going to last MUCH longer than one sealed with steel.
This is a great feature of this reel!
Although this reel's gearbox is not waterproof, the fact that the bearings are rubber sealed makes up for this. I don't believe a reel will fail due to a few drops of water entering the gearbox, especially where the bearings are properly greased and sealed. My mind would be at rest even dunking this reel.
After a wet session, it's a piece of cake to remove the Gearbox cover (4 screws), and to dry out any water that may have entered.
THE DRAG SYSTEM
Tried and tested, the Penn HT-100 system of Keyed Carbon Fibre Drag washers is about as good as it gets in the Drag department. Outstanding smooth drag from Penn, providing between 20 and 22lbs of Drag.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 43.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 44.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 45.jpg)
THE LINE ROLLER
I was disappointed to find that the Line Roller had a Plastic bushing in it instead of a Bearing...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 46.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 47.jpg)
Examining the Dog PAWL
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 49.jpg)
A simple spring loaded system that might not be bullet-proof, but is certainly better than no Anti-reverse Backup!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 50.jpg)
RE ASSEMBLY
So let's put the reel back together...
Having a look at the Side Plate, there is no attempt at making the reel water resistant with a rubber seal. Would have been a nice addition?
Place the bearing and the Crosswind block plate and the Cross wind gear.
A disturbing feature of this reel is that many of the working parts fit directly onto the Body, without the added protection of even a bushing, let alone a bearing. The Crosswind gear fits directly onto a cylindrical tube projecting out from the RHSide Plate. This is not ideal. I don't particularly favour metal on metal working parts, especially where the one part is a fixture and irreplaceable. Should the side plate cylinder become worn, it's tickets for the reel. It's not repairable without buying a whole new Side Plate and reel stem!?
The same arrangement is seen with the Pinion Gear inner fitting - metal on metal working parts - no bushing or bearing.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 51.jpg)
Make sure the Anti-reverse bearing is put on the correct way, otherwise the entire reel won't work!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 52.jpg)
Replace the Pinion gear.
Here we see where the Pinion fits into a recess in the body of the reel. The pressure that this part of the reel takes during function will certainly cause wear of that recess and eventually loss of tolerances.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 53.jpg)
The Pinion in place... don't those sealed bearings just look fab!!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 54.jpg)
Pay attention to the orientation of the Retainer plate...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 55.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 56.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 57.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 58.jpg)
Don't forget the Rotor Washer before placing the Rotor itself.
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 59.jpg)
A nice feature of the Rotor nut retainer plate is that it is adjustable, making fitting that tiny screw a piece of cake...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 60.jpg)
Examine the Crosswind block
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 61.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 62.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 63.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 64.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 65.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 66.jpg)
Now would be a most excellent time to screw in the handle and test that all the gears are functioning correctly before proceeding!
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 67.jpg)
More beautiful sealed bearings...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 68.jpg)
Replace the Side plate
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 69.jpg)
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict 70.jpg)
Replace the Spool and.... done!
Impressions and Conclusions
A solid reel, and very smooth on the retrieve.
Outstanding Drag system and if the line lay system is similar to the Sargus and Battle, there will be no complaints about that.
Very little attempt has been made to waterproof this reel, but that is made up for by the Rubber sealed bearings.
In my opinion, most reels fail and fall on bearing maintenance. Seized bearings are the biggest culprits to causing general failure. Penn have got their priorities spot on here with focusing on putting in bearings that:
1. Can be serviced and maintained easily
2. Will last much longer than other bearings, once properly packed and resealed.
This definitely is a HUGE plus for the average angler, who hasn't got the knowledge or experience to service their own reels.
My big corrosion concern for this reel is the AR Bearing, which has no protection at all from corrosion. This bearing needs to be lubed straight out the box, and regular maintenance will be necessary.
The Drive Gear composition, as discussed, was initially a grave concern in the Sargus. But time has proven that the Gear is standing up to what it was built for. Same goes for the Crosswind gear.
Not happy with the Metal on metal working parts, reckon Penn could have made a huge difference to these reels by providing at least bushings on the Crosswind gear and Pinion.
Backup Anti-reverse mechanism is certainly a big plus!
Bang for Buck - absolutely! If this is an improved version of the Battle, it can only be good! The Battle has been very successful in it's use and abuse on many Charter Boats in the US.
Also one of the best looking reels on the market... and we all know how important BLING is!! :hnthnt:
In short, LOTS of PRO's and very few CON's.
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You gotta be KIDDING !!!!
AWESOME TONY !!!
(clap) (clap) (clap)
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Excellent, thank you looks very good for the price.
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looks like value for money...good looking too... (clap) is all I can say to mr.Reefs :win:
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Tony have u done a comparison between this and the battle?
After the other thread I immediately went on to the web and did some research, and the one guy put it: "so are you paying more for 2lb more drag and bigger holes in the spool?
But very nice! You look at things I don't even think of! I must say out the box the drag of the battle felt a little sticky. Old sald did them with his drag stuff, and after that no issues at all!
Also takes some getting used to that it has that strong a drag, if you fishing lighter, it's a lot of turns before it's loose!
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Reefz thats a superb post, and that reel makes my mouth water!!! :+ cred:
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(clap) You can easily pass as sales rep for Penn! As usual a thorough tutorial.
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(clap) ... excellent tut and review once again , jeepers i can hardly keep up with all the reviews so far , great stuff Tony , you gonna wake up one day and find your driveway 6ft deep in reels for tuts and reviews.. :hyst: .... :bow: .
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Dude do you not sleep, sheeeeesh exceptional as always. (clap)
That reel really does look good
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Tony have u done a comparison between this and the battle?
After the other thread I immediately went on to the web and did some research, and the one guy put it: "so are you paying more for 2lb more drag and bigger holes in the spool?
But very nice! You look at things I don't even think of! I must say out the box the drag of the battle felt a little sticky. Old sald did them with his drag stuff, and after that no issues at all!
Also takes some getting used to that it has that strong a drag, if you fishing lighter, it's a lot of turns before it's loose!
Marthin no, I haven't opened up a Battle before, so I cannot compare them.
To me, there are very few reels, besides a Stella, that should be fished straight out the box. I will always at least lube the Bearings and Drag washers of a new reel - that's the bare minimum.
Ya the Penn HT-100 Drag system is Carbontex on tap... except the keyed washers allow both sides of the Drag washer to affect the Drag. They've now proven that 1 Keyed Carbon washer produces the same Drag as 1.5 unkeyed washers.
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I have a Battle 5000 .... :creep: :creep: .. that i can give to you on Sat for a review / compare and tut , straight out the box .... :creep: :creep: ... shall i bring it then .... :hnthnt: :hnthnt: .
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I have a Battle 5000 .... :creep: :creep: .. that i can give to you on Sat for a review / compare and tut , straight out the box .... :creep: :creep: ... shall i bring it then .... :hnthnt: :hnthnt: .
Great... then we can compare Apples with Penns...
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Reefz how do they compare size wise? Is the 6000 similar to a 6000 daiwa or shimano?
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Reefz how do they compare size wise? Is the 6000 similar to a 6000 daiwa or shimano?
Not sure Brad but the Battle 4000 is a whole lot smaller than the 5000 , compared to the Conflict .. :dunno:
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The 6000 size Conflict I did here is the same size as a Shimano 8000.
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HI Reefs,
Did get your hands on the Battle 5000? I'm looking forward to your detailed and illustrative review. (clap)
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It's under the review section..... http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=14587.0 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=14587.0)
For servicing, the Battle and Conflict are pretty much identical except for minor differences.
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Thanks reef,
Are these conflict reels available in SA yet?
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They should be? If not, very soon!
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Latest news in is that the Conflicts will be available in Mid December....
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respect. all i can say.
and WELL DONE !!!
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Nice breakdown. Very helpful. I'm looking for a cheap w ay to beef up my sargus, do you or does anyone else reading this thread know if the conflict 6000 spool/drag assembly and knob would fit on a sargus of equal series? Like the fierce does. Also... would swapping one drag washer for a keyed drag washer and rearranging the order increase max drag?
Any help would be appreciated. J.
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Nice breakdown. Very helpful. I'm looking for a cheap w ay to beef up my sargus, do you or does anyone else reading this thread know if the conflict 6000 spool/drag assembly and knob would fit on a sargus of equal series? Like the fierce does. Also... would swapping one drag washer for a keyed drag washer and rearranging the order increase max drag?
Any help would be appreciated. J.
I'm sure that keyed drag washers will increase the Drag. 2 Keyed drag washers = 3 non-keyed Drag washers in the amount of Drag achieved. You need to be careful however, in pimping a reel's drag to beyond what it's designed to withstand. The Drag might be stronger, but something else will break?!
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Thanks for the break down and review, great job!
I have just bought a conflict 4000 and on my first trip out i can feel a light grinding and knocking sensation and noise as the spool moves down. there is nothing catching externally and it feels internal, its apparent when the spool is off too. It doesn't feel right. I've sent an email to Penn but not heard anything as yet. Strangely, a friend who has the battle 4000 has the same issue - he describes it as feeling like a cement mixer. Has anyone else had this problem? I wonder if it the pinion rubbing on the reel housing as you described, feels like it could be...
Any thoughts would be most welcome!
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Jamie... could be many things. The reel is not waterproof, so some dirt could have gotten inside?
I would open the reel up, clean it out, and relube all the bearings and the gears that fit into the reel frame. That should sort the problem out.
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Thanks for the prompt reply. Will get on the case and strip it down and fingers crossed that that will do it.... will let you know.
Thanks again
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A great tut,just been used to service my conflict 5000. It has had its first 2 outings, and I must say that I am very impressed by it. It is a very robust reel and pretty smooth for what you pay. I have had a few stradics, saragosa's and I am starting to really prefer the pen due to its toughness! I have had lots of issues with wear on my shimano' sa round the handle, and find it flippen frustrating to have a handle that has "play" on it!
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So after a couple of years of regular use, my Conflict 6000 seized up. The reel is used for casting to yellowtail and longfin and goes to sea on every trip. It is well maintained.
Upon opening it, the small gear on the main drive has fractured off and is in 3 small pieces. It appears to be mounted on a sleeve that is pressed onto the shaft. Not very strong and not that impressed.
That is now a Stradic 8000, an Exceller and now the Conflict this year alone.
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:shk
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The pinion and main gears on my Stadic 5000 need to be replaced, I have ordered new parts R755.00.
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Sounds about right price-wise.
It's a good thing that you are replacing as a pair of gears.
Even if only one gear was really in need of replacement, ie damaged, they wear as a pair.
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Sounds about right price-wise.
It's a good thing that you are replacing as a pair of gears.
Even if only one gear was really in need of replacement, ie damaged, they wear as a pair.
In this case, (The Penn), the Oscillation gear is also probably worn... and the stub that the Oscillation gear fits on (part of the reel frame) is also probably stuffed, along with the recess (also part of the frame) that the Pinion gear fits into. This is why I intensely dislike reels that have gears that fit directly onto the frame without bushing or bearing protection.
Travelmembers' reel probably needs to be binned.... :-(
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(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/articles/conflict/conflict%2056.jpg)
Morning Gents,
I would like to find out where I can purchase spares for Penn, I require the AR spring pictured above for my Sargus SG6000.
I did not have success contacting Purefishing in Randburg, seems like the number provided on Google does no work.
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These?
11 1191085 11-5000SG Bushing.
12 1191090 12-5000SG A/R Bushing Spring.
I'll find out for you. There are very limited spares for the Sargus I.
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Only require the below.
12 1191090 12-50000SG A/R Bushing Spring