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General Angling Topics => Saltwater Lure Angling => Topic started by: REEFMAN on October 17, 2013, 08:59:42 PM

Title: Using a Braid leader for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on October 17, 2013, 08:59:42 PM
I got tired of losing expensive lures through braid snap-offs mid-cast. Leader knots in braid are notoriously fickle, especially in the thinner braids, so I learnt about this method of using a Braid leader on my spinning setups from some of the KZN spinning pro's.

[smg id=1819]

The idea is to have a 4m Braid leader (on a 10ft rod); [7m leader on a 13ft rod]; that is much stronger than the Mainline braid. This is wrapped round the spool a few turns, so that one casts off the much stronger braid. It also provides better abrasion resistance than the thinner mainline braid and saves a fortune on lures.

I've been using this setup for a few trips now and I'm sold on it.

On my 20 and 30lb mainline braid setups, I use 50lb Braid leader, 4m on a 10-11ft rod.
On the 50lb Braid mainline setups, I use 80-100lb Braid leader, 7-8m on a 13-14ft rod.

There are a number of variations in this setup.

1. Bimini mainline braid, Bimini Braid leader, join with a CatsPaw.
2. Stitch the Mainline braid into the Leader with 14 stitches, and the same with the Leader into the mainline - 14 stitches. This is fine to do at home, but impossible on the beach. This is first prize and the strongest way.
3. The way I do it - which can be easily accomplished at the beach. Make a few Braid stitched leaders at home and keep them in your tackle box.
Bimini the Mainline. Join the Loop of the Braid stitched leader to the mainline Bimini loop with a Modified CatsPaw knot, takes 1 minute on the beach.

All Braid knots will decrease the strength of the braid, sometimes by up to 40%, so the less knots in Braid the better. Enter the Braid Stitch, which is essentially a Tanaka's loop, which works through the principle of a Chinese Cuff - no loss of strength through the braid, a 100% knot. So we use this where we can.

Best is to Braid stitch the end of the Mainline into the leader, and then leader into the mainline.  This is fine because you can do this at home. Problem comes when you need to replace your Braid leader on the beach - there is no way you can stitch braid at the beach! So, we make a few Braid stitched leaders at home and keep them in your bag.
So we do a Bimini in the Mainline, joined to the Stitched leader with a Mod CatsPaw.

How to make a Braid stitch loop - http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=74.0 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=74.0)

This is what it looks like... a 4m Casting Braid leader

[smg id=1818]

Next step is to do a Bimini double in the mainline - http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=66.0 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=66.0)

Now you can join the Loop in the mainline to the loop in the leader with a Modified CatsPaw - http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=71.0 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=71.0)

Once joined, then you can join the Braid leader to a 1m Fluorocarbon leader with the 7turn Uni/Fig 8 knot - http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=73.0 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=73.0)
Or you can use the PR Knot, or the FG Knot, which is becoming very popular.

This is what you'll have:

[smg id=1819]




Bimini in the mainline - as you can see, the knot is tiny and perfectly castable through the guides.

[smg id=1820]

[smg id=1821]

[smg id=1822]


The 2 different setups:

1. STITCH MAINLINE DIRECTLY INTO BRAID LEADER


(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/MGalleryItem.php?id=3271) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NhAtMvD4RA&feature=youtu.be#)
2. BIMINI MAINLINE WITH BRAID STITCHED LEADER

(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/MGalleryItem.php?id=3272)



Hope this helps someone as much as it did me... changed my whole spinning experience!

Here's the Video...

Make a Casting Braid leader (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NhAtMvD4RA&feature=youtu.be#)
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Homie on October 18, 2013, 07:49:21 AM
Used one that Reefz kindly gave me at Maps, and its still on my reel !!!

Works like a bomb !!!

 :udman:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: sardinella on October 18, 2013, 07:55:23 AM
Used one that Reefz kindly gave me at Maps, and its still on my reel !!!

Works like a bomb !!!



You should try and use it as well :crzy
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Homie on October 18, 2013, 08:01:31 AM
Used one that Reefz kindly gave me at Maps, and its still on my reel !!!

Works like a bomb !!!



You should try and use it as well :crzy

 :rotfl
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Marthin on October 18, 2013, 08:04:37 AM
if i can only get the damn bimini's right!!!!!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lucky Hook on October 18, 2013, 09:00:12 AM
Reefman that a great tutorial and exactly the way we tie our leaders for spinning!
Just to add I normally remove the (wax?) coating from the braid by running it between my finger nails before tying the bimimi as this seems to allow the knots to bite better and not slip after a while.
Also when tying the cats paw the line on the reel sould be looped around the thicker braid leader - This can be done by removing the spool from the reel.

Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Charles on October 18, 2013, 09:07:55 AM
if i can only get the damn bimini's right!!!!!
:corrct: I don't feel alone anymore! No matter how I try it always looks like some bird dropping!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on October 18, 2013, 09:11:46 AM
Reefman that a great tutorial and exactly the way we tie our leaders for spinning!
Just to add I normally remove the (wax?) coating from the braid by running it between my finger nails before tying the bimimi as this seems to allow the knots to bite better and not slip after a while.
Also when tying the cats paw the line on the reel sould be looped around the thicker braid leader - This can be done by removing the spool from the reel.

LH... you must try the Modified CatsPaw... it's SO much easier!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on October 18, 2013, 09:13:06 AM
if i can only get the damn bimini's right!!!!!

Marthin, have you tried this method... http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=15462.0 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=15462.0)
Try it! She's a piece of cake!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Marthin on October 18, 2013, 09:18:38 AM
yip intend to as soon as i get home this arvo.... checked the video a few times already this morning since opening the thread...

2 weeks ago i put the 15lb braid away immediately after casting off first cast, and then fished the heavier outfit....

Looks easy enough..... but ive learnt over the years watching someone do something they've done a lot and then trying it isnt the same thing....
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lucky Hook on October 18, 2013, 09:57:28 AM
Thanks Reefman - I am using modified catspaw but prefer to have mainline wrapped around single strand of thicker braid leader than vice versa. Not sure if this makes sense without diagram.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on October 18, 2013, 10:44:37 AM
Thanks Reefman - I am using modified catspaw but prefer to have mainline wrapped around single strand of thicker braid leader than vice versa. Not sure if this makes sense without diagram.

 :corrct: Ok I'm with you. Do you think it makes a significant difference to the strength of the knot?
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on October 18, 2013, 11:16:19 AM
Been thinking about this... your method won't work for me because I make the loop in the Braid stitch very small. The spool won't go through. If you use small loops, the only way is to do the Modified CatsPaw?
I'm not crazy about making bigger loops because of the fear that one may open and catch a guide on the cast?
Or am I missing something?

The loop on my Stitched leader is very small...
(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/MGalleryItem.php?id=1818)

Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lucky Hook on October 18, 2013, 11:28:16 AM
Reefman I am not sure if tying the modified cats paw in this manner is stronger.
I now use 40lb gator braid leader and 17kg siglon flouro carbon with 12kg nanofil main line. When stuck on a reef the nanofil always parts above or on the bimimi in the nanofil.
In the past I used a cats paw and the line parted on the catspaw with the nanofil bimimi being intact with the loop being broken.
I feel that the thinner mainline that is doubled should be wrapped around the thicker braid that is a single strand.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lucky Hook on October 18, 2013, 11:35:52 AM
The loops in my braid leader and main line are just big enough to pass the spool of a straic 5000 through. The loops do ocassionaly catch an eye in windy conditions but not very often.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Marthin on October 18, 2013, 10:00:45 PM
Quick hijack.....

Tony, thanx a mil. I now replaced the spider hitch connections to bimini's. I can finally do a bimini!!!!!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Gerhard on October 19, 2013, 03:44:53 AM
Thanks Mr T... :tkx:


Will be building the leaders this week.


Have some 20lbs braid on the way I want to test next Friday. Problem here is not that lures ar expensive...


Problem is there are non available...


Will give feed back.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on October 19, 2013, 05:44:19 AM
Quick hijack.....

Tony, thanx a mil. I now replaced the spider hitch connections to bimini's. I can finally do a bimini!!!!!
Fantastic Marthin!  :win:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on October 19, 2013, 05:48:11 AM
Thanks Mr T... :tkx:


Will be building the leaders this week.


Have some 20lbs braid on the way I want to test next Friday. Problem here is not that lures ar expensive...


Problem is there are non available...


Will give feed back.
Hope you're not going to try make 20lb leaders with a braid stitch! You will need a microscope for that.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Gerhard on October 19, 2013, 07:40:59 AM
Hehehe...


20# main line and 50# leader.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: carll on October 21, 2013, 09:57:52 PM
Eisch I can believe there are no lure's available. So the people living there dont fish  :shk If I read your reports it looks like a

fishing meka ....
 
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Gerhard on October 22, 2013, 03:16:57 AM
Eisch I can believe there are no lure's available. So the people living there dont fish  :shk If I read your reports it looks like a

fishing meka ....


Ok, let me refrase that...


If you are a Rapala collector you will have a field day in the little 4x2 size shopies.


But thats it.


No plugs, spoons, poppers nit even to talk about rods and reels...


Closest place from me is Ocean Active in Dubai about 1500km away.


I am now trying to find a way to ship a Amia rod without braking the bank but will probably will have to wait till Jan next year when I go home for a couple of weeks to stock up again...



Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Gerhard on November 01, 2013, 09:13:00 AM
So I tested the bimini and braid stitch setup this morning...


Not happy at all about the combo i made.


Out came the braid scissors and a quick spider hitch in the 20lbs braid and the same in the 50lbs braid.


cats paw to connect with FG not on leader and i was back fishing in a jiffy. The spider hitch knots are nice and small in the braid and run smooth trough the Amia's eyes...
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: carll on November 01, 2013, 11:21:05 AM
Yes the Amia is fitted with those small micro guides.  I donít like them and I got tired of losing expensive lures through   braid snap-offs mid-cast. I replaced it with the K-Series   (anti-fouling) Concept

guides from  Fuji,that makes a HUGE difference !
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Fishersteve on November 10, 2013, 02:28:15 PM
Great idea  (clap) going to try this.  :tkx:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on November 10, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
Using the above method this last week, made approximately 2000 casts without a single snapoff or Wind Knot, casting anything from 1oz to 4oz plugs (met geweld)...
Done properly, this system is Champion and has revolutionized my spinning experience.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Haroldg on November 11, 2013, 05:14:09 PM
Hi Tony
1-4oz is a very versatile range. I have yet to find an outfit servicing this range of lures. Would you mind telling us the outfit you're using? With this outfit do you not find that you have to really push hard to get the lighter 1-1.5oz lures out. The reason I ask is because the outfits I've looked at work well with either 1-2oz or 3oz-4oz but not in the 1-4oz you mention.
 
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on November 11, 2013, 09:48:08 PM
I didn't explain myself clearly. Yes you are absolutely right about the range.
I use an Exceler 10ft to cast 3 and 4 oz; Sustain 5000
Beastmaster 7ft to cast 1 and 2oz; Stradic 5000
1000 casts each, no breaks.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: carll on November 12, 2013, 10:51:49 PM
Im using this knot to join my Braided leader to my Braid main line and   then also to join the Braid leader to my Fluoro leader. Its a

modified Bob Sands knot or so called here in SA Slim Beauty. I was massively impressed with the results of the ease of the Bob

Sands knot and absolute amazing strength of the connection,now and I'm sold on it ! Each failure I had was where the

mainline parted and never the braid or connection.

@ Reef .. you going to like this website ... its scary to see knots that fail at 42% - 60% ... Knots that we every day use !

http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4lineknotsused.htm (http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4lineknotsused.htm)
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on November 13, 2013, 07:16:35 AM
Been speaking with Paulus for years, he's a member here on UA.. Have sent him many samples of lines and knots for testing...
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: deezynking on December 22, 2014, 12:24:22 AM
I know this might sound silly, but i recently got into lure fishing/spinning.
I learnt by accident about the braid leader story.
I got +-13kg fireline joined to 50lb braid using uni/figure 8 knot. the thin fireline is doubled. i have a lockknot on both and on a test the knot seats well and seems strong. I have not caught any monster fish with this as yet. my mono is roughly a meter long joined with an albright knot. best fight thus far was about a 14kilo grey.


should i retire from what i am doing as this currently works for me and practice the braid stitch?


shot alot , thanks in advance
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on December 22, 2014, 08:18:54 AM
Deez, the Braid Stitch is much better than any other method of making a loop, so if you want to improve your setup, then it's the way to go.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Haroldg on December 22, 2014, 12:04:34 PM
OK, so after I got my new Sustain I found out that I made a rookie mistake. If you spin with braid and use a leader, don't make your leader long enough for the knots to pass through your rod's eyes. When you cast the knots will slow down your mono slightly which causes a loop or over-wind in your braid which can then easily wrap around your rod eyes.  :blush:  I did not know this. 
Yes Homie, straf dop time!  :hehe:


After keeping the short leader knot outside the top eye for many years I've started using a longer leader - down to half a rod length; I'm using the FG knot (there are a few ways of tying this - find the one that you prefer). there is no knot as such and no resistance through the guides. The leader thickness also doesn't matter with this knot. I would like to try a full length leader with a few turns on the reel at some point but figure that although there is no knot there would be an issue when the leader unwinds from the spool.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Haroldg on December 22, 2014, 12:12:09 PM
just one more thing.... the reason for the longer leader ie inside the guides is that I reckon with the amount of initial pressure put on the braid flying through the guides there is bound to be a weakening of this specific length of braid - the leader is much better able to absorb this punishment?
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: BAUMANNATOR on December 22, 2014, 12:41:33 PM
Haroldg, just my 2c worth....rather go with a slightly thicker braid as a casting leader (fireline  works brilliantly 'crystal' especially), this is not so thick as to affect the speed of the line through the eyes, but gives insurance to the wear and tear from the release finger and takes the strain of the cast better. I have used the mono to the reel, but avoid it being on the reel, as it comes off in coils and increases chance of guide wrap. Mono will reduce the distance you cast by increased resistance as it travels through the eyes.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Haroldg on December 22, 2014, 01:13:27 PM
Baumannator - thanks, will give Fireline a try sometime - you're quite right about the problems with a full length leader with mono. I know of a few chaps using thicker braid leaders but wanted to stay with a fluoro leader due to its properties under water.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: SAfish on December 22, 2014, 02:18:05 PM
I went for a 3 hour session this morning and the new reel and braid performed very well. I am also worried about the wear on the braid but check it after every 20-30 casts.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Steenie on December 22, 2014, 03:15:25 PM
The braid will never wear so quickly because of the casting. I spin for 2-3 hours every morning and do an inspection of the braid twice a week. I find the biggest wear comes from the very coarse sand on the steep KZN beaches right at the shore-break.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: abdb on December 28, 2014, 12:52:09 PM
HI
Could you repost the Braid Stitch Knot. I cannot open it in the previous link posted.
Tried the Double main to double thicker braid leader but it is a bit noisy through the guides and with subsequent loss of distance.
Using 30  and 20 lb braid.
Found that the braid wears at the bail and have lost a few lures due to the weakening of the main line. I have been cutting off 4 meters of mainline to avoid this but am getting a bit low on the reel.
Thanks
Anthony

Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: abdb on December 28, 2014, 04:31:21 PM
Thanks for the link. Working now for me.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Half-Pint on December 28, 2014, 08:43:56 PM
Personally I have found the opposite, I have really enjoyed downscaling all my lines but using 50lb leaders. I have snapped 30lb a few times too. Though this may be due to casting technique (more arse than class :blush:)

Braids these days are so strong you can pull really hard on 20lb without busting off.

Having said this we definitely do not get the size fish you get in Saudi!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: GT on December 29, 2014, 11:44:18 PM
Hi Reefs


Thanks for another brilliant post


Just wondering, will your suggested  setup work with the microwave system ? I'm using the Sierra 330h paired with a Sustain 5000 loaded with 30lbs Jigman.  Still donating those expensive lures to the ocean.  duh
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Gerhard on December 30, 2014, 05:35:25 AM
Hi Reefs


Thanks for another brilliant post


Just wondering, will your suggested  setup work with the microwave system ? I'm using the Sierra 330h paired with a Sustain 5000 loaded with 30lbs Jigman.  Still donating those expensive lures to the ocean.  duh


GT,


Is Jigman braid designed for casting or jigging?



Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: GT on December 30, 2014, 06:59:08 AM
Hi Gerhard


Not really sure. Was advised by Barry Wareham to use it some time ago. I'm using a Siglon florocarbon leader attached with an Albright that Barry personally taught me. I'm throwing 1 to 2 ounce lures. Still breaking off !!! Very very frustrating when you trying to do everything by the book.


By the way, where do you fish in Saudi ?

Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: allsorts on December 30, 2014, 07:40:51 AM
 I'm quite new to the shore spinning game so this thread has been helpful.  The mainline to FC shock set-up nearly cost me a yellowtail of the rocks so after that I changed to a stitched set-up - Gosen PE 2 looped to 40lb Whiplash. I found that stitching the Gosen wasn't hard with proper ou ballie specs.  I am not 100% sure about using a straight loop instead of a catspaw but a post I read on an overseas thread (think it was tuna popping) made the point that a doubled loop only has to be 50% efficient to work and with a catspaw there was more chance of a slip which could lead to a burn-off.  Anyway I don't pretend to have the experience to make a call but it is an interesting point.

Not wanting to name drop I happened to be fishing yesterday with Barry (unfortunately the yellowtail were thin on the ground) and he showed me 2 leader setups he is using which might be of interest.  He is currently experimenting with nanofil to see if using a full length braid leader will prolong nanofil's life.  Anyone who has used it shore based knows it frays very quickly with extended use.  Time will tell.  The other thing he showed me on his heavy outfit was PE4 FG'd to a rod + 1/2 length heavily-waxed  JGB braided leader material (100lb I think).  This was done particularly with yellowtail off the rocks in mind (Krantz etc) - I've never seen a braid to braid FG before. 

As a sidebar I got to handle the new heavy spinning rod he is testing (PE3-5, 2-4 oz) - it's impressive and he said it would easily pass the Cape Town Tail test - i.e.  to lift and swing a 10lb Tail onto the rocks. 
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Gerhard on December 30, 2014, 07:58:10 AM
Hi Gerhard


Not really sure. Was advised by Barry Wareham to use it some time ago. I'm using a Siglon florocarbon leader attached with an Albright that Barry personally taught me. I'm throwing 1 to 2 ounce lures. Still breaking off !!! Very very frustrating when you trying to do everything by the book.


By the way, where do you fish in Saudi ?

Mate,

Learn how to do an FG Knot for braid to nylon leader.

You will NOT look back.

Where are you breaking off when casting?

Leader or braid?

Did you do some research on Jigman braid before buying on Google?

I am fishing in the Persian Gulf and hopefully will be on a new project by end of 2015 fishing in the Red Sea on the Yemen border ...
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on December 30, 2014, 08:36:31 AM
I'm quite new to the shore spinning game so this thread has been helpful.  The mainline to FC shock set-up nearly cost me a yellowtail of the rocks so after that I changed to a stitched set-up - Gosen PE 2 looped to 40lb Whiplash. I found that stitching the Gosen wasn't hard with proper ou ballie specs.  I am not 100% sure about using a straight loop instead of a catspaw but a post I read on an overseas thread (think it was tuna popping) made the point that a doubled loop only has to be 50% efficient to work and with a catspaw there was more chance of a slip which could lead to a burn-off.  Anyway I don't pretend to have the experience to make a call but it is an interesting point.

Not wanting to name drop I happened to be fishing yesterday with Barry (unfortunately the yellowtail were thin on the ground) and he showed me 2 leader setups he is using which might be of interest.  He is currently experimenting with nanofil to see if using a full length braid leader will prolong nanofil's life.  Anyone who has used it shore based knows it frays very quickly with extended use.  Time will tell.  The other thing he showed me on his heavy outfit was PE4 FG'd to a rod + 1/2 length heavily-waxed  JGB braided leader material (100lb I think).  This was done particularly with yellowtail off the rocks in mind (Krantz etc) - I've never seen a braid to braid FG before. 

As a sidebar I got to handle the new heavy spinning rod he is testing (PE3-5, 2-4 oz) - it's impressive and he said it would easily pass the Cape Town Tail test - i.e.  to lift and swing a 10lb Tail onto the rocks. 

 :welc: Rolfe.

Great first post!  :+ cred: (Even though you've been a lurker for 3 years!  :hehe: )
This is the type of info us binnelanders thrive on! Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: allsorts on December 30, 2014, 09:53:14 AM
Thanks Reef - glad to slightly ease the burden of those living more than 20 minutes from some pretty good shore-based spinning  w;k .  I'm more of a bass guy but since moving to the False Bay area the focus has shifted.  I had some pretty good seabass fishing when I lived in Ireland a few year ago and that got me hooked on SW spinning.  Here's some pics http://jimhendrick.typepad.com/bass-fisher/2009/10/daiwa-day-breaker-performs-at-day-break.html (http://jimhendrick.typepad.com/bass-fisher/2009/10/daiwa-day-breaker-performs-at-day-break.html) 
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: carll on December 30, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
Hi Reefs


Thanks for another brilliant post


Just wondering, will your suggested  setup work with the microwave system ? I'm using the Sierra 330h paired with a Sustain 5000 loaded with 30lbs Jigman.  Still donating those expensive lures to the ocean.  duh





Hi GT

I have the same set up as you, the only difference is that I use Gosen 25lbs. The Sierra makes use of MicroWave guides and the runner guides are too small to accommodate the the braid leader. The knots cause havoc in those small runner guides.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on December 30, 2014, 10:32:28 AM
Hi Reefs


Thanks for another brilliant post


Just wondering, will your suggested  setup work with the microwave system ? I'm using the Sierra 330h paired with a Sustain 5000 loaded with 30lbs Jigman.  Still donating those expensive lures to the ocean.  duh

I have Microwave guides on my Amia and use the Braided leader on this setup. The knots, as you can see in the pic, are minute, barely wider than the diameter of the braid. I don't have any issues at all with this setup. But the Sierra might be different? Try it on the practice field casting some inexpensive sinkers and see if it works for you?

EDIT: After much use, I decided that those Microwave guides slow down the casting process dramatically by throttling the line too quickly. Got so frustrated one morning, that I took out my pliers and actually cut/tore/twisted the small micro guide right out!!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: carll on December 30, 2014, 11:35:31 AM
Hi Reefs


Thanks for another brilliant post


Just wondering, will your suggested  setup work with the microwave system ? I'm using the Sierra 330h paired with a Sustain 5000 loaded with 30lbs Jigman.  Still donating those expensive lures to the ocean.  duh

I have Microwave guides on my Amia and use the Braided leader on this setup. The knots, as you can see in the pic, are minute, barely wider than the diameter of the braid. I don't have any issues at all with this setup. But the Sierra might be different? Try it on the practice field casting some inexpensive sinkers and see if it works for you?


The Sierra 300H make use of the new Nanolite MicoWave Guide System. Those runner guides are smaller than the Amia's runner


guides "EISCH jy het lees brille nodig om jou braid deur daai guides te kry"  :-( 
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: GT on December 30, 2014, 11:50:25 AM
Gerhard , Reefs and Carll. Thanks for all the responses. It's off to the playground
For me.


Gerhard , which version of the FG knot do you use ?  I saw quite a few on Youtube
Kindly post a link if possible. Barry told me he uses the FG as we'll. but  he also said " it's a very difficult knot" !!!



Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Gerhard on December 30, 2014, 12:10:43 PM
Gerhard , Reefs and Carll. Thanks for all the responses. It's off to the playground
For me.


Gerhard , which version of the FG knot do you use ?  I saw quite a few on Youtube
Kindly post a link if possible. Barry told me he uses the FG as we'll. but  he also said " it's a very difficult knot" !!!

GT,

I can not imagine why its a very difficult knot...

Its easy straight forward and super strong with a added bonus of being small...


This is how I do it

http://youtu.be/Rj9I4j0Jj9c (http://youtu.be/Rj9I4j0Jj9c)

Do the wraps.
Make two half hitches and pull leader and braid hard the  make 5-6 more half hitches on the leader and then again 6 on the braid.

Do not melt the leader as on some videos!

I use this from 15lb braid upto 100lb braid...
 
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: BAUMANNATOR on December 30, 2014, 02:56:03 PM
Hi all. I have experimented with a wide range of leaders. Your eye configuration on the rod has a very large influence on the config you choose. Too heavy a leader (diameter) and you get the leader slowing with the resistance and the light main line overtaking it and then eye-wrapping. Cross wind  also plays havoc if you go too heavy. The length of the leader also  increases the chance of eye-wrapping, keeping the leader knot off the spool greatly reduces the chance of wrapping. You can increase the length of the leader if it is lesser diameter and thus have it onto the spool, remembering that the 'knot' may increase the chances of taking loose loops with it, as well as scufffing the line on which it lays. The distance to the first 'gathering' eye and it design also impact on the length and diameter leader you can confidently use.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Seventenths on December 30, 2014, 04:57:39 PM
Wow... this thread has given me plenty to consider - thanks to all the contributors/participants. Cred coming your way....
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: GT on December 31, 2014, 10:48:02 PM
Gerhard,


 :tkx: a gazillion . After a few attempts I finally got the FG right. Amazingly super slim and equally strong. Definitely my go to knot for joining braid to leader from now on.


Im calling it My  :ult:  Knot !


 :uarocks 











Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Gerhard on January 01, 2015, 03:54:57 AM
Gerhard,


 :tkx: a gazillion . After a few attempts I finally got the FG right. Amazingly super slim and equally strong. Definitely my go to knot for joining braid to leader from now on.


Im calling it My  :ult:  Knot !


 :uarocks


Great stuff!


Tight lines mate!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Spud on January 01, 2015, 10:31:26 AM
First of all happy New year to ALL.
What happens when one uses 30 pd braid and 50pd braid as a leader using a Uni knot as a preferred knot as have been using this for the last 35 years on normal fishing line !!!
And that is connected a quick clip. To change lures.
Has any one tried that ???
My set up is 11 ft Aerocast rod with a 6000 Saragossa 30pd braid.

Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on January 01, 2015, 12:31:14 PM
Uni knot in Braid and the Spider Hitch in braid weaken the Braid by up to 40%, they are not recommended in braided lines - this has been proven over and over by Paulus and by Sportfishingmag.com.

Uni in Braid to Mono, it's slightly better.

Spud, you should be using Braid mainline, Braid leader, then a 1m Fluoro leader out the guides, to which you attach your clips/lures etc
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Moolla on January 01, 2015, 12:52:04 PM
Hi Reefman

As indicated above, I also suspected the uni knot when tying braid to braid.

Is there a simple and quick knot (such as the uni) that you would recommend for tying:

Main line braid to leader braid-

Thereafter

leader braid to 1 metre flouro

I like to believe the less terminal tackle, the less chance of anything extra that could fail, when you on with a PB.

Moolla
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Spud on January 01, 2015, 02:08:16 PM
Thanks guys, OK so I think those recipes will work , 30 pd braid, 50 pd braid leader, 1 m flouracarbin I am going to use Uni knots on all, if I join Uni knots when bass fishing I pull up tree stumps  :nuts: so am going with that. (clap)
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on January 01, 2015, 04:41:08 PM
Moola, the knots I recommend are in the first post of this thread... it's always worthwhile doing it properly.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on January 03, 2015, 08:30:55 PM
So I finally got round to making that Video that explains how to do it....

This one's for Charles!

Make a Casting Braid leader (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NhAtMvD4RA&feature=youtu.be#)
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: colin on January 03, 2015, 09:39:51 PM
 :tkx: that was so easy to follow.  :win: Colin.  :toppie:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: GT on January 03, 2015, 11:17:43 PM
Thanks Reefs.  :udman: . Will be using this on my heavy setup.
 :win:    :win: :win:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lofty on January 04, 2015, 08:20:48 PM
well explained Reefs,will try and use it,but where do I find,say a 4m length of 40lb braid leader(20lb mainline braid)without having to buy 375yrds for R400+... :cnfzd :hehe:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Haroldg on January 04, 2015, 10:05:57 PM
Can't get much clearer than this Tony... :+ cred:  I think a lot more people than Charles will benefit from this. Thanks for the effort.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Half-Pint on January 05, 2015, 08:26:32 AM
well explained Reefs,will try and use it,but where do I find,say a 4m length of 40lb braid leader(20lb mainline braid)without having to buy 375yrds for R400+... :cnfzd :hehe:

JDB do a "surf leader" basically just smaller rolls of braid. Normally 150m I think. CHeck out Basil Manning
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: allsorts on January 05, 2015, 08:45:48 AM
The Kingfisher in Durban sells small packets of heavy Whiplash braid for making casting leaders - at a guess it's 80lbs and there's enough in there to make several leaders.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on January 05, 2015, 09:34:50 AM
Or just mix and match with your mates...  :hnthnt:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Spud on January 06, 2015, 07:45:21 PM
Thanks reefs watched that vidio made a lot of sense, also so did Gerald's  :tkx:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: kevf on July 19, 2015, 05:13:07 PM
Reefs, are you still using this setup for your leader? I find my tag end on the loop of the heavy leader slips on the last stitch and the tag frays and interferes with the casting, slowing the lure down and causing wind knots. :dunno: ive got 25lb gosen and using 50lb as the leader, FG knot an option? 
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on July 19, 2015, 08:21:04 PM
When the tag frays, just trim it. Ya the fg knot is definitely an option. I'm considering using it. Going to try it with a long fluoro leader... when I get my new grinder setup.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Haroldg on July 19, 2015, 09:43:18 PM
After trying all sorts of knots over many years I can't find anything that comes close to the FG "knot" (no real knot present) for me. This is on a 5000 size grinder and 10' rod.  I must admit that when someone first showed it to me I was very skeptical but that's now history. I've tried tying it various ways including this way but find that if I need to do this on the beach then doing the wraps loosely and tightening up every five or so is a lot easier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzUb5QRKuk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzUb5QRKuk)


Reefs - I'd be keen to hear how a full length leader using a FG knot works for you. I've found that if you intend wrapping the leader a turn or two around the spool the stiff end of the leader at the join interferes with the cast as it unwinds. I know your reasons for going full length leaders but what I've found is that if you keep the join a few centimeters outside the spool you can still get your back into the cast as there's plenty of leader to absorb the shock? To my mind the first meter or so of leader around the top guide takes most of the punishment?






 
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: A007M21 on February 16, 2016, 09:59:38 PM
Hi Reefman.

Just discovered this post and would like to know if it would be better to use this tanaka splice / braid splice to join backing braid to braid topshot on heavier surf grinder setups? (30lb to 30lb and 50lb to 50lb)

ie: splice backing braid, splice topshot braid and then join with catspaw.

Another question - what's your thoughts on the alberto knot for joining a mono leader to braid topshot? (30lb braid to .80 mono)

Thanks
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on February 17, 2016, 06:10:56 AM
If you're going to go to the trouble of splicing both the backing and mainline, then rather splice them into each other, without having to knot. Stitch the mainline into the backing, then stitch the backing into the mainline. This is the best join by far.

The Alberto knot is the same as a Modified Albright knot. It's an ok knot. But there are better: PR Knot, FG Knot; Fig 8 to Uni; Yucatan.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Psy on March 24, 2016, 03:05:46 AM
 :tkx:                              Reefman                         
 
 :win: post!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on March 24, 2016, 05:45:56 AM
Shot Psy. Where you been?? :wlcmbk
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Psy on March 24, 2016, 08:27:13 AM
 :toppie:  still walking the beaches and fishing where and when i can, one learns a new thing everyday.


 :shmno:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 02, 2016, 11:29:18 AM
Hi Reefs,
A great idea. I use an old Exceller 9ft that has very small guides after the first 2 . I stitched 50lb suffix as a loop and attached it with a 3 turn modified catspaw to my bimini in the 301b suffix.
However it clatters through the eyes and reduced my casting distance by about 10%.
I presume that you guys don't have this problem because of bigger diameter eyes or am I missing something.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 02, 2016, 12:51:09 PM
Not sure why this is happening to you Haze?

The Modified CatsPaw knot is as small as it gets, barely thicker than the doubled braid??

The guides on all my rods are the Fugi KR Concept guides, custom built. Has made a huge difference to the smoothness of the cast. And the guides after the stripper guide through to the tip are really small!

(http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/MGalleryItem.php?id=1821)


Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 02, 2016, 12:53:53 PM
So I'm thinking that even 30lb Sufix is too thick to use on a 9ft rod as mainline? You should be using 15-20lb max?  :dunno: (If it's for spinning). What reel are you using on the 9ft?

Sufix 832 30lb breaks at 50lb and according to Paulus is 0.39mm thick, which is probably where your problem lies.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 02, 2016, 11:35:18 PM
I am using a Gossa 6000sw.Will post pic on weekend of guide size vs knot size. Regards Paddy
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 03, 2016, 09:59:36 AM
It is interesting that in the Cape we tended to use heavier  spinning tackle than the Natal guys yet slowly and surely I find I am moving towards the lighter gear. Will respool one of the Gossa 6000s with 40lb gaitor braid which is half the thickness of suffix and give it a go with the leader.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 03, 2016, 11:17:47 AM
It is interesting that in the Cape we tended to use heavier  spinning tackle than the Natal guys yet slowly and surely I find I am moving towards the lighter gear. Will respool one of the Gossa 6000s with 40lb gaitor braid which is half the thickness of suffix and give it a go with the leader.

Will be an interesting exercise... keep us posted.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 07, 2016, 10:15:04 AM
Well I decided to spoil myself with a Berkly 9 ft copperhead (Ps I am a founder member of Tackle Addiction Unanonymous)
My mate Mike has the same set up - 6 inches off the tip,with a 6000 Gossa spooled with 33ib Triple Fish 8 strain braid.(0.14mm)
AVERAGING 95.8m WITH A 60G FLATBACK SPINNER
On Sunday we use my Gossa 6000 with Suffix 832 40lb and the same 60g spinner
I averaged 80m and he averaged 76m. Almost a 20% difference in distance from last week
Its conclusive in our application, that line diameter plays a huge role whether it is due to weight, wind resistance or resistance pulling line off the spool.
I am going to respool both my Gossas with 40LB Gator 0.18mm in the next week or so and repeat.Will keep you posted.

Re the braid leader.I still hear the knot going though the guides on casting.Is that normal ?

Was wondering if anyone has come up with some sort of silicone spray to spray on line as I am sure that water or salt residue
even after rinsing will provide extra resistance coming off spool

Was thinking of trying 2 back to back fg knots on a piece of mono to see how that works

Regards

Patrick

Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Trevour on June 07, 2016, 08:45:18 PM
I seriously doubt the two fg's will improve anything. I would worry about one of the tag ends from the mono facing up the guides when casting, that alone will make its fair share of sound when casting. I would also worry about it constantly impacting against the guides, which may encourage the fg or at least the half hitches to slide off the mono. And you will probably need to use .50mm mono which will create a big step up from the braid, and that step will surely create noise, and speed reduction. Having said all that, I agree that we need to experiment more to find the best formula, so it would be interesting to hear your results. I would experiment with a light sinker before trying out something more expensive.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 07, 2016, 09:13:30 PM
I  have found that the bimini in the mainline braid attached to the braid stich loop joined with a three loop modified catspaw still clatters through the guides and seems to make a 10% difference less than without the stitched leader.
Was thinking about using the double fg and mono to join braid in the middle of the spool rather than 7 turn double uni as wont be casting it.
Then I suppose using a double bimini joined with modified catspaw probably will be stronger.
Will carry on experimenting.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 08, 2016, 07:53:08 AM
Patrick, how long is the Braid leader that you're using?
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 08, 2016, 09:09:34 AM
About 15 ft on a 9 ft rod. I have about 4 or 5 turns of the leader on the spool and the leader is about 1 ft past the end guide where it is attached to the flouro
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Trevour on June 08, 2016, 10:19:42 AM
If you have a bobbin try this. double the mainline for about 500mm. Tie a 3turn uni with this double line around the braid leader, in such a way that you still have a tag end of close to 500mm running down the mainline, and a small loop running up the leader away from the mainline. From there proceed to do a pr knot using the 500mm tag to wrap around both mainline and leader heading down the mainline towards your reek. It is important to keep both leader and mainline tight in the procedure to prevent either from bunching. I do about 100 wraps and end with a rizutto finish, half hitches will do . The reason for the uni is simply to create the little loop, which gives you something to grip in order to keep the  lines tight. The pressure from the main line will never reach this uni because all the pressure will by then have been passed onto the leader. The knot is super strong, Id venture to say stronger than a bimini in the mainline and has a very thin profile, hardly thicker than the leader as the leader is compressed under the wraps and not doubled either. For extra peace of mind, although I 'll pretty much guarantee the knot won't slip, I pass the line doing the wraps between the leader and mainline after about 50 wraps and then do the remaining wraps. If you don't have a bobbin like myself, you can attach the 500mm tag to a sinker (30lbs - 3oz, 40 lbs 4 oz, 50lbs - 5oz) From there you can spin the sinker around leader and mainline as a bobbin does. I can do the entire knot in well under three minutes, on the rocks and in the wind, and it casts great, for hours on end without issues. There is no need to do any turns of the mainline around the leader before doing the wraps, this happens automatically. I know this may sound complicated but it is really simple, and once you get used to it you will love it. I use similar methods to to create loops, it even works with mono to mono, except I do away with the uni. Its the stongest single line knot in mono that I have tried, and creates a smooth low profile knot especially when using thick leaders.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Trevour on June 08, 2016, 12:00:37 PM
Finished product.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 08, 2016, 04:16:55 PM
PR Knot is fantastic if you learn how and practice it. It's what I'm using now to tie Braid to Fluoro/mono.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 08, 2016, 06:53:31 PM
Thanks Trevour,

Will give it a go over the weekend.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: fishatic on June 10, 2016, 06:42:30 AM
On Sunday we use my Gossa 6000 with Suffix 832 40lb and the same 60g spinner
I averaged 80m and he averaged 76m. Almost a 20% difference in distance from last week
Its conclusive in our application, that line diameter plays a huge role whether it is due to weight, wind resistance or resistance pulling line off the spool.
I am going to respool both my Gossas with 40LB Gator 0.18mm in the next week or so and repeat.Will keep you posted.

Re the braid leader.I still hear the knot going though the guides on casting.Is that normal ?

Was wondering if anyone has come up with some sort of silicone spray to spray on line as I am sure that water or salt residue
even after rinsing will provide extra resistance coming off spool


40lb 832 has an actual BS that is a lot more than 40, closer to 60-65lb and attendant dia 0.45mm that goes with such strong line.
Your spool is emptying much faster with a thicker line and distance drops.

Also, have found that thicker 8 strand braids hold a lot more water and the additional weight also doesn't help

Your #40 832 would make great leader (say 5m) for a spinning set up like yours.

#10 832 would make a good main line, actual BS is around 30lb, dia 0.24mm.

Try to keep your main line to leader knot as short as possible; for a quick and easy knot you can tie on the beach, the Bob Sands with 7 wraps up and 7 wraps down the leader line is handy and strong and a useful alternative to the FG when you are in a rush...
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 10, 2016, 09:01:59 AM
Thanks Fishatic,

Another piece of the puzzle fits into place.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Trevour on June 29, 2016, 08:27:21 AM
Has anyone tried the bimini direct that Paulus refers to as being 99.5% knot. Biminis and PR knots are very similar in construction, a bimini just has a more equal ratio of turns up and down the knot. Personally I think a PR will be  easier to do consistently, and that less twists is better than more, with the line that goes back up the knot basically crimping the two line together in a controlled and gradual way
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 29, 2016, 08:42:27 AM
What's a "Bimini Direct"??
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Debbie on June 29, 2016, 08:43:44 AM
 :tkx:  great info
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Trevour on June 29, 2016, 08:54:16 AM
bimini direct is the same a a bimini except the second leg is the leader itself, and the mainline is cut and tied doqwn above the knot. Paulus gives a good discription in his knots used section
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 29, 2016, 12:02:45 PM
Eish... had a look and I've got no idea of what he's trying to do. Seems way too complicated for my pea brain!
PR Knot is simple compared to this!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Trevour on June 29, 2016, 12:41:37 PM
I know - I read it a few times before understanding. basically you attach the end of the mainline about 750mm up the leader using a connection you can easily untie.The 750mm section is now running side by side to the mainline towards the reel. The reason for the initial knot is just to form a loop, enabling one to twist the leader and mainline together as in a bimini. After the twists the loop goes over a knee as usual, and the leader is walked back up the line as in a bimini, and the tag of the leader is tied off with whatever your favorite method is. You now have legs 2 coming out the knot as usual except one leg is the leader. Undo the original knot you tied with the mainline. This is effectively a tag end. Do a couple of half hitches with it around the leader just for security sake and cut it off.

Basically the leader ends up being the second leg of a normal bimini twisting down and walking back up the mainline. Its basically a pr knot. Using the leader rather than the mainline gives the knot more length than doing it the other way around and this is important. However doing a pr knot using the mainline will give a thinner knot. Either way the knot should be at least 50mm long.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 29, 2016, 01:41:26 PM
Think I'll stick to my bRaid stitch method if I'm at home and do the PR knot on the beach, or FG, or Bob Sands...
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 29, 2016, 05:53:03 PM
Ok Trevour, I am up for the challenge !! Will play around with it in the next few days

On another aspect, A few people seem to use Knot Sense or superglue. Does it make much of a difference apart from sticking my

fingers together and if so would one of the super glue gels not be better?

Ps You can see the guys have cabin fever.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Vandit on June 29, 2016, 06:20:45 PM
Tried the direct bimini, with significant diameter increase - PE 1.2 ~ 2 to PE 4+ my horrendous biminis slip and break due to dynamic loading.  From my "pseudo" line tests, using JB hollow to hold the line, my FG's test 85%, my biminis slip at about ~65-70% (30 turns).


The thing with knots is however good you think you are at making them, my KNOT is not your KNOT is not Paulus's tested KNOT.  To prevent infant mortality I always test my knots to at least 5kg's on my light line classes 15-30lb.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 29, 2016, 06:31:08 PM
Please post the link for the Bimini Direct
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Trevour on June 29, 2016, 07:35:23 PM
Also tied one. It becomes a bit fiddly, the remaining part of the leader tends to be all over the show. can imagine issues on the rocks. It's also a bit of a mission getting good tension in the bimini. Google paulusjustfishing for the site. I know some people use glues, Perhaps I would consider it to streamline a tag end, and but personally I think a well tied knot would ultimately be better, especially super glue that can be brittle. slipping biminis need more turns, and possibly more tension whilst tying
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Psy on June 30, 2016, 12:49:03 AM
http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4knotreview.htm (http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4knotreview.htm)
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 30, 2016, 06:55:40 AM
Ok Trevour, I am up for the challenge !! Will play around with it in the next few days

On another aspect, A few people seem to use Knot Sense or superglue. Does it make much of a difference apart from sticking my

fingers together and if so would one of the super glue gels not be better?

Ps You can see the guys have cabin fever.

I use Knot sense on most of my PR, FG knots and also on the tag ends of the Braid stitch. Sets best with a small UV penlight (it's tiny, about 8cm long) - look for the LOON OUTDOORS UV light in the Fly fishing section of your tackle shop -  Result is a nice smooth and flexible join that runs through the guides nicely. Also helps keeping the mono tag exactly parallel with the mainline so it doesn't snag. It will definitely help your issue of the knot being noisy through the guides.
I find Superglue is too brittle and cracks develop.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Vandit on June 30, 2016, 09:03:14 AM
Please post the link for the Bimini Direct


http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/images/BiminiTwistHeavyBraids.jpg (http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/images/BiminiTwistHeavyBraids.jpg)
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Vandit on June 30, 2016, 09:08:50 AM
Ok Trevour, I am up for the challenge !! Will play around with it in the next few days

On another aspect, A few people seem to use Knot Sense or superglue. Does it make much of a difference apart from sticking my

fingers together and if so would one of the super glue gels not be better?

Ps You can see the guys have cabin fever.

I use Knot sense on most of my PR, FG knots and also on the tag ends of the Braid stitch. Sets best with a small UV penlight (it's tiny, about 8cm long) - look for the LOON OUTDOORS UV light in the Fly fishing section of your tackle shop -  Result is a nice smooth and flexible join that runs through the guides nicely. Also helps keeping the mono tag exactly parallel with the mainline so it doesn't snag. It will definitely help your issue of the knot being noisy through the guides.
I find Superglue is too brittle and cracks develop.


Anyone tried this stuff instead of serving a hollow braid leader to mainline splice?
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Vandit on June 30, 2016, 09:18:01 AM
Slipping biminis need more turns, and possibly more tension whilst tying.


My ham hands just can seem to knot a proper bimini. Tried increasing number of turns and making a massive loop to increase tension by using my knees.  I just can't get them to test consistently.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on June 30, 2016, 10:37:30 AM
Roelof, come to the GP social on the 16th, we can go through a few techniques? Bimini, PR, FG, Bob sands etc...
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on June 30, 2016, 08:48:35 PM
Thanks Reefman.


Will try Knot Sense. Am still interested in trying super glue gel :tkx:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on July 10, 2016, 04:20:51 PM
I have found the FG knot for mainline braid to braid leader is a great knot. It is strong, quicker to tie than 2 biminis and a catspaw and passes easily through the guides.
It is the answer for me for spinning when you are unable to stitch lines together because of time and small diameter of braid.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: glynnkent on July 17, 2016, 11:14:52 AM
Thanks for the great tutorial Reefz. It really has helped me a lot. :+ cred:


Just me 2c: In my experience, I feel that its imperative that you use the knot sense to finish off the end of the braid stitch. The eyes of my Amia really didn't enjoy the end of the stitch and it impact upon the distance i was getting. Before I had purchased the knot sense, I did a little half-hitch on the beach and cut the tag end very short which seemed to help pretty well as an interim solution.


On a somewhat unrelated note, I recently upgraded by braid to the new Gosen 21lb casting braid. It came at a hefty price. I've had it loaded on my Stradic 5000FJ for use on my 11ft XH Amia. On a few occasions while casting, the mainline braid wrapped around the first/second eye mid-cast; which is a rather harrowing experience.


Is this a result of the braid being too thin for the rod? Or am I doing something wrong in my casting? Would a longer/shorter braided leader assist in avoiding this situation? The rod has a recommended PE rating of 1.5 to 2.5 with the braid having a slightly lower PE rating of 1,2.
Cheers
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lofty on July 17, 2016, 05:43:23 PM
Have a read here regarding wind knots etc. : http://www.sportfishingmag.com/how-to-prevent-wind-knots-in-braid (http://www.sportfishingmag.com/how-to-prevent-wind-knots-in-braid)


Hope it sorts your guide wrapping problem out... :clwn
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on July 18, 2016, 06:57:29 AM
And here... http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=3596.msg41149#msg41149 (http://www.ultimateangling.co.za/index.php?topic=3596.msg41149#msg41149)

Easiest way to get over this problem is to change the guides on your rod. No looking back.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lenny on July 18, 2016, 07:23:52 AM
This is a interesting thread , I have not red it from the start .


I can only add UV KNOT sense are the way to go when it comes to glue .
The list of pros by far out weighs any other product .
When comparing uvks and superglue .


UV , are plyable , it stretches , and are soft and smooth , compare this to using superglue . NO COMPARISON .


I have made thousands of wind-ons with knot sense , some of them I have fished with for weeks , and the UV KS are still neat and shows very little damage.
We have also put them to the test extensively offshore , same story .
I will say it again and again , don't waist your time with super glue , yes some might find it works for the,


With the price of tackle and bait , why would you choose a product , that's not made for fishing to save 20 to 30 bucks .


Just my take on glues .
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Steenie on July 20, 2016, 02:25:06 PM
Just some of my experiences with braid leaders since the beginning of 2016:

I have mastered the FG knot for my braid mainline to braid leader connection and treat the knot with UV knot sense. It travels beautifully through the KR concept guides that Fishatic has put onto my Assassin Sierra rod. The knot strength is phenomenal.

A big learning curve was pairing my braid mainline with the correct thickness braid leader. I initially tried to pair my PE1.5 (25 lb) Gosen casting braid that does not absorb water (due to teflon coating) with a 5 meter section of PE4 braid leader (50 lb JDB 8-weave). This turned out to be way too big a stepup! The braid leader was too heavy, and got even heavier once it absorbed water, and this caused a traffic jam (with guide wrapping) in the guides during the cast. This happened infrequent, but enough times to place doubt in your mind with every cast. I had a couple of snapoffs losing lures in the process. Interestingly, the specific KR concept guides on my rod did not prevent this from happening. I ended up using shorter and shorter lengths of the PE4 braid leader (as short as 3. 5 meter) to try and combat the problem, but it did not work. The only solution was to lower the PE rating of the braid leader. Stepping down to a PE2.5 (35 lb) leader solved my problem completely! I still need to see if I can get away with a PE3 leader. Despite these intial problems I find the use of braid leaders extremely advantageous and will certainly not go back to using PE1.5 setups without them.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on July 20, 2016, 05:43:21 PM
Hi Steenie,

Which version of the FG do you use ?
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Steenie on July 20, 2016, 06:46:21 PM
Hi Steenie,

Which version of the FG do you use ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzUb5QRKuk&itct=CB4QpDAYAiITCJq11qrs1ccCFUYOFgodi2QFETIHcmVsYXRlZEi__oCk5_n_juEB
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on July 21, 2016, 07:57:42 AM
Just some of my experiences with braid leaders since the beginning of 2016:

I have mastered the FG knot for my braid mainline to braid leader connection and treat the knot with UV knot sense. It travels beautifully through the KR concept guides that Fishatic has put onto my Assassin Sierra rod. The knot strength is phenomenal.

A big learning curve was pairing my braid mainline with the correct thickness braid leader. I initially tried to pair my PE1.5 (25 lb) Gosen casting braid that does not absorb water (due to teflon coating) with a 5 meter section of PE4 braid leader (50 lb JDB 8-weave). This turned out to be way too big a stepup! The braid leader was too heavy, and got even heavier once it absorbed water, and this caused a traffic jam (with guide wrapping) in the guides during the cast. This happened infrequent, but enough times to place doubt in your mind with every cast. I had a couple of snapoffs losing lures in the process. Interestingly, the specific KR concept guides on my rod did not prevent this from happening. I ended up using shorter and shorter lengths of the PE4 braid leader (as short as 3. 5 meter) to try and combat the problem, but it did not work. The only solution was to lower the PE rating of the braid leader. Stepping down to a PE2.5 (35 lb) leader solved my problem completely! I still need to see if I can get away with a PE3 leader. Despite these intial problems I find the use of braid leaders extremely advantageous and will certainly not go back to using PE1.5 setups without them.

That's interesting that you had a problem with the JDB x8 as a casting leader. I'm not sure whether the problem was the size though? Even more interesting is that the KR guides still got tangles! When you used thinner Braid leader, was it still using JDB?
Wonder what Fishatic or Enigma's thoughts are on this?
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: PatrickH on July 21, 2016, 08:04:46 AM
Thanks Steenie.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Steenie on July 21, 2016, 08:07:54 AM
Just some of my experiences with braid leaders since the beginning of 2016:

I have mastered the FG knot for my braid mainline to braid leader connection and treat the knot with UV knot sense. It travels beautifully through the KR concept guides that Fishatic has put onto my Assassin Sierra rod. The knot strength is phenomenal.

A big learning curve was pairing my braid mainline with the correct thickness braid leader. I initially tried to pair my PE1.5 (25 lb) Gosen casting braid that does not absorb water (due to teflon coating) with a 5 meter section of PE4 braid leader (50 lb JDB 8-weave). This turned out to be way too big a stepup! The braid leader was too heavy, and got even heavier once it absorbed water, and this caused a traffic jam (with guide wrapping) in the guides during the cast. This happened infrequent, but enough times to place doubt in your mind with every cast. I had a couple of snapoffs losing lures in the process. Interestingly, the specific KR concept guides on my rod did not prevent this from happening. I ended up using shorter and shorter lengths of the PE4 braid leader (as short as 3. 5 meter) to try and combat the problem, but it did not work. The only solution was to lower the PE rating of the braid leader. Stepping down to a PE2.5 (35 lb) leader solved my problem completely! I still need to see if I can get away with a PE3 leader. Despite these intial problems I find the use of braid leaders extremely advantageous and will certainly not go back to using PE1.5 setups without them.

That's interesting that you had a problem with the JDB x8 as a casting leader. I'm not sure whether the problem was the size though? Even more interesting is that the KR guides still got tangles! When you used thinner Braid leader, was it still using JDB?
Wonder what Fishatic or Enigma's thoughts are on this?

I am confident that the problem is the PE rating rather than the brand. Glynnkent had exactly the same problem with a PE4 leader on his PE1.2 braid mainline. I suggested to him to go down to PE2.5 for his braid leader and he says it solved his problem completely. He is using the JDB 8x PE2.5 now. So I don't think there is anything wrong with JDB for the braid leader.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: fishatic on July 21, 2016, 08:17:27 AM
Its a pity I am so far away as it would be nice to see it happening.
There can be issues when the dia difference is dramatic.
Personal set up uses PE4 leader to PE1.5 main line and have not experienced this yet - caveat YET....

What I have seen is where the mainline twists itself around the leader so you end up with the knot sticking out at 90 degrees to the line.
NO guide system will cope with this as the dropper-loop effect wraps itself around the guide ring (rather than the frame) Will post a photo of what I mean.

I wont use JDB line though..
Tried it for a bit as a main line and removed it from my reel.
Coating sloughs off in strips and clogs the line roller and guides. Icky sticky green gunk.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: glynnkent on July 21, 2016, 08:28:23 AM
I agree with Steenie. I'm certain the ratio of PE rating from the mainline to leader caused my issues. A PE rating of 4 on the leader paired with 1.2 was just too big a step-up. On Steenie's advices, I downscaled the PE rating on my braided leader to reduce the step-up to from the mainline and this solved all my problems instantly.


Currently using the Gosen 21lb casting mainline (PE1,2) with JDB 8x 35lb (PE2,5) leader. Will experiment with PE 3 rated leader this weekend to see if anything changes.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Steenie on July 21, 2016, 08:30:06 AM
I guess another factor involved could be the Gosen casting braid itself, because it is teflon-coated and it absorbs little water if any. So it remains extremely light, whereas the JDB PE4 braid leader gets heavy because of water absorption. Maybe that makes the difference just to big. Perhaps other casting braid that absorbs water would be ok. I would not know. But Glynnkent, who had the same problem also uses Gosen casting braid.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: fishatic on July 21, 2016, 08:40:29 AM
Dropper loop effect I mentioned....
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Steenie on July 21, 2016, 09:14:50 AM
Dropper loop effect I mentioned....

Jip got them as well with the PE4 braid leader on. This all disappeared when I downscaled to PE2.5 braid leader.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Steenie on July 21, 2016, 09:17:17 AM
Exactly the problem I had! Nice photo of the devil Fishatic!
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on July 21, 2016, 10:11:37 AM
This is fascinating!
I use Whiplash Pro 50lb leaders connected to Sufix 832 20 and 30lb setups.
Also 80lb Jigman x8 connected to 40 and 50lb Sufix mainline setups.
Never had a Knot or tangle. But then I don't get to fish as often as you guys...  :-(

Very interesting.

Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: fishatic on July 21, 2016, 11:22:18 AM
I suspect its due to line twist:

No matter how good a reel you use, line twist (to some degree) is inevitable.
The continuous casting and retrieving when spinning tends to push the twists towards the end of the line, the much thinner main line cannot force the twists onto the leader and so you end up with all the twists bunched up at the leader knot enough twists and the main line wraps around the leader.

Better line rollers and maintenance of the roller's bearings help - experienced this recently with an old-school Penn Spinfisher SSM 6500 - within 20 casts I had created enough twist for this to happen, the design of the roller is just (k)not up to the task.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lofty on July 21, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
How many "wraps" must i do when joining mainline braid with braid leader using FG knot,with Fluoro leader it's 20 wraps I see... :tkx:
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: fishatic on July 21, 2016, 08:03:00 PM
I use 20.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Lofty on July 21, 2016, 08:12:42 PM
How many "wraps" must i do when joining mainline braid with braid leader using FG knot,with Fluoro leader it's 20 wraps I see... :tkx:
I use 20.
Ok thanks,so it's the same amount of wraps as Fluoro...asked because some knots just about double in wraps if using braid as opposed to nylon...
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Vandit on July 21, 2016, 09:58:06 PM

I use 5m PE5/6 JB hollow 60lb as casting leader on PE1.2, PE1.5 and PE2.5 mainlines, only seen this happen when splicing - FG and PR knots sorted it out. On the other hand, 50lb 4X Rovex Viros was a nightmare, which is quite a bit thinner but comparatively stiff due to the coating. I can confidently say that this problem is so complex that multiple and opposing solutions are possible.  You could either argue that this knot forms due to accumulating line twist, or is created by dynamic unbalance do the comparatively discontinuous change in both mass and stiffness between mainline and leader.  That would be a chicken or egg argument though because this problem requires both those things to occur.  Not using a braid leader easily verifies that, as it eliminates dynamic unbalance off the bat.  I'd guess the solution of reducing diameter is a two birds one stone situation if all braids were equal, as it tackles both those problems (and very aggressively fyi, both will reduce by at least a factor proportional to d^2).  Going into a tackle shop and feeling a few different lines quickly illustrates that this should not be seen as rule.  The limpest, thinnest leader braid you can get away with would be the ideal.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: fishatic on July 21, 2016, 10:20:39 PM
Bloody engineer!
You are worse than me!
Rod working ok?
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: Vandit on July 21, 2016, 10:52:49 PM

Bloody engineer!
You are worse than me!
Rod working ok?

What you on about, its not just an occupation, it's a lifestyle...  I'm 25, my rods still work as they should and I've never had to blame them for poor performance... :hnthnt:   I make up for my bad casting technique with my relative youth, when thats gone Ill have to build some lure casting paintball gun. Still want that double foot KR stripper though, expect a call in the near future.
Title: Re: Using Braid leaders for Casting
Post by: REEFMAN on September 18, 2019, 07:58:49 AM
Just bumping this post up a bit. Lots of guys asking about Braid....
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